Romové podruhé, snad bez emocí

31. 07. 2007 | 16:59
Přečteno 105096 krát
Ve svém minulém jednoduchém textíku jsem se pokusil vysvětlit svůj laický pohled na romskou otázku. Děkuji všem za připomínky i za věcné tóny diskuse. Ty byly velmi povzbudivé. Právě proto bych chtěl odpovědět na některé, které zazněly nejčastěji a nejnaléhavěji.

Napřed k jedné faktické poznámce z diskuse. Pan Stejskal nám připomenul, že šiřitelem tezí o rasové předurčenosti inteligence byl vydavatel Der Stürmer, Julius Streicher. Jeho vlastní inteligence však byla ubohá. Pro pořádek dodávám, že podle měření v době Norimberského procesu byla „hodnota“ jeho IQ 77. Nejchytřejší z norimberských obžalovaných byl finančník Hjalmar Schacht (s opravou na věk se blížil 150). Toho tribunál osvobodil. Podle měření Dr. Gilberta byl Göring v pořadí třetí (132). Hess dosáhl v opakovaném testu hodnoty kolem 120. Gilbertova knížka mne zaujala jako kluka, proto si ty hodnoty pamatuji dodnes.

Řada čtenářů namítá, že neříkám nic nového. To je samozřejmě pravda, my ekonomové jsme velmi málo invenční. Takový Adam Smith, který vyšel před 231 lety, nám přijde stále aktuální. Ale nešlo mi přece o to, říci něco úplně nového. Šlo mi o zformulování mého pohledu na tuto oblast. Jen primitivně říkám, že problém musíme řešit. A musíme ho řešit ze sobeckých důvodů většinové společnosti, nikoli kvůli krásným očím samotných Romů. Jinak za to řešení nebo neřešení právě většinová společnost zaplatí mnohem víc. A říkám, že to bude stát mnohem víc peněz, než by nám bylo milé, a že to potrvá dlouhé desítky let.

Jiní čtenáři po mně chtějí, abych nekecal a sám navrhl a prosadil konkrétní řešení. To bohužel in concreto nemohu. Nemám k tomu ani kvalifikaci, ani potřebný aparát. I pan profesor Gabal, který se jako sociolog problematikou profesionálně zabývá delší dobu, vám spoustu otázek neodpoví, a prohlásí zcela korektně, že patří do kompetence někoho jiného. Lidé, kteří mají na všechno recept hned, na sebe mnohdy prozrazují, že jen nemají představu o jeho hloubce. Takže nová koncepce je prací na pár let pro interdisciplinární tým včetně sociologů, odborníků na sociální práci, etnografů, pedagogů, ekonomů, personalistů a právníků. A Romů samotných, protože se to nedá dělat bez nich. Já v tomto týmu určitě nebudu, protože se profesně zabývám jinými věcmi. Přesto musím držet elementární kontakt s tím, co se v oblasti děje, protože na problém budu narážet i v dalších (svých) oblastech, a budu ho ze své pozice možná oponovat, poskytovat součinnost nebo k němu zaujímat prosté občanské stanovisko.

Čtenáři se domáhají toho, abych přiznal, že ani sociálně demokratické vlády problém efektivně neposunuly. To jsem v původním textu výslovně napsal. Úspěšná nebyla ani pravice ani levice. Naše liberální čekání na Godota selhalo. Integračně úspěšnější byl zřejmě předlistopadový režim. Pracovní povinnost a stíhání příživnictví, povinná školní docházka přinejmenším do těch zvláštních škol, dvouletá základní vojenská služba. To upevňovalo alespoň nějaké pracovní návyky a modely soužití s většinou.

Polistopadoví politici ovšem v podstatě plnili představu svých voličů. Dělat něco pro Romy je velmi nepopulární. Romů je z hlediska volebního efektu velmi málo. Volební účast je mizivá, část z nich nemá české nebo dokonce snad žádné občanství. Navíc je tu problém manipulace s romskými hlasy. Každý politik ví, že jeden získaný romský hlas znamená úbytek pěti hlasů ostatních. Silná slova vůči Romům naopak hlasy spolehlivě přinesou… Teze o kupování romských hlasů je tedy zavádějící. Proto se všechny strany v předvolebním období pozitivním zmínkám o řešení romské otázky úzkostlivě vyhýbají.

Řada čtenářů požaduje po společnosti, aby přinutila Romy dodržovat normy. To bude stačit. No, nebude. Bohužel, právo má své jasné meze. Represe vůči porušování norem je úspěšná jen tam, kde je porušování norem řídké. Trestný čin vraždy odsoudíte snadno, pokud je výjimečný. V podmínkách občanské války, kdy se sousedi vraždí na potkání, vám trestní zákoník moc nepomůže. Je-li někde porušování většinové etiky a práva příliš četné, represe nebude ani nemůže fungovat. Nebudete mít nikdy dost policajtů, svědků ani kriminálů. Nikdo tu kriminalitu nenahlásí, protože se bude bát. Musíte tedy hledat i jiné postupy.

Jiní lidé to vidí tak, že je potřeba sebrat dávky. Ty české dávky patří v mezinárodním srovnání k nejnižším v rámci EU. Ale i ti největší zastánci omezení dávek nemají jasno v tom, které dávky rušit. Třeba naše podpora v nezaměstnanosti je už dnes jednou z nejkratších v EU. Ale tu vyloučená skupina skoro nečerpá. K nároku na ni je nutno přijít o práci. O práci nemůže přijít, kdo ji neměl. Podobně nechceme sebrat důchody, nemocenskou a dětské přídavky. Ani současná, rádoby pravicová vláda nechce rušit zvýšený rodičovský příspěvek, navržený v pominutí mysli lidovcem Severou a podpořený kolektivní předvolební demencí poslanců všech stran… A ani to pitomé pastelkovné nezruší!

Ale i kdybyste zrušili úplně všechny dávky, toho, kdo nemá pracovní návyk a elementární kvalifikaci, stejně do práce nedostanete. Pouze ho posunete do větší bídy na straně jedné a do organizovaného zločinu na straně druhé. Ani jedno vám moc nepomůže. Chudák vás na koupališti nakazí žloutenkou a lotras vám cestou do špitálu sebere šrajtofli.

Také nápad vystěhovat neplatiče z bytů bez náhrady není bez vady. Kam půjdou? Skončí v beztak přeplněných bytech příbuzných a nakonec v nelegálních ghettech. To jsou místa, která na katastrální mapě neexistují, není tam tekoucí voda, kanalizace, elektřina. Je tam středověk. Koloběh bídy, z které není úniku. Doporučuji k exkurzi někde v okolí slovenského Telgártu.

Idea rozdávat sociální pomoc jen v naturální formě též není bez vady. Sama o sobě je naturální podoba dávek dražší o náklady distribuce. Neřeší drobnost, z čeho bude příjemce platit nájem, vodu, elektřinu, uhlí a plyn. Můžeme to samozřejmě platit za něj, no ale zase je to dražší o další práci úředníků. A příjemci mají navíc luxus, že za ně někdo chodí platit i ty složenky. Předností naturální podoby dávek je jen to, že mírně omezí počet žadatelů. Mají zřejmě smysl jen tam, kde jsou lidé opravdu dlouhodobě nezaměstnaní. Ty, kdo mají z ostudy kabát, to nezastaví, postihne to zase jen skutečné chudáky.

Nápady na zpřísnění režimu pro dlouhodobě nezaměstnané, kterými hýří čtenáři, se zdají být logické. Skutečností je, že už v současnosti mají úřady práce ale i sociální složky určité možnosti být přísnější. Tváří v tvář potenciální i otevřené agresivitě toho příliš nevyužívají. Nikomu se moc nechce udat nebo skřípnout souseda. Ruku na srdce, kolik těch zneužívačů dávek jste sami udali? Skutečnost, že dlouhodobě nezaměstnaným se neorganizuje denní režim, považuji za chybu deset let. Od té doby sice došlo k určitému zpřísnění, přesto na nás stále řada chytráků vyplazuje jazyk. Bere podporu a zároveň po Praze pod nějakou nálepkou třeba taxikaří. Kontrole se pak vykazuje fingovanou krátkodobou smlouvou.

Kolegové, kteří se zabývají sociální oblastí, argumentují tím, že buzerace je drahá, a také není příliš účinná. A pracovní povinnost pro flákače vede jen ke zvýšení počtu infarktů u těch, kdo to musí organizovat… Vzpomeňte, jak uklízeli mazáci na vojně. No neuklízeli, švejkovali a dělali ještě větší rambajs. Nejsem proti, ale pochybuji o velkém efektu. Ale možná by docela stačil i ten malý.. Nejúčinnější ale zároveň nejdražší je ta individuální sociální práce. Proto se má nasazovat tam, kde všechno ostatní selhalo. Máte snad pocit, že neselhalo?

Podle odhadů kolegy Gabala se exkluze (sociální vyloučení) zatím týká 60 – 80 tisíc Romů. To je ale méně než polovina odhadované Romské populace. Znamená to, že větší část Romů je více nebo méně integrovaná. O řadě z nich ostatně netušíme, že jsou Romové. Nedávno mi někdo vyprávěl o tom, že romský původ má třeba jeden špičkový lékař. Moc to nezdůrazňuje, myslí si prý, že v práci i v životě by to mělo být jedno. Kéž by měl pravdu.

Komentáře

Aktuálně.cz má zájem poskytovat prostor jen pro korektní a slušně vedenou debatu. Tím, že zde publikujete svůj příspěvek, se zároveň zavazujete dodržovat Kodex diskutujících. Pokud Váš text obsahuje hrubé urážky, vulgarismy, spamy, hanlivá komolení jmen, vzbuzuje podezření z porušení zákona, je celý napsán velkými písmeny či jinak odporuje zdejším pravidlům, vystavujete se riziku, že jej editor smaže.
Přejeme Vám zajímavou a inspirativní výměnu názorů.
Libor Stejskal, editor blogů (blogy@aktualne.cz)

Ruda napsal(a):

Koupit jim koně a vozy ,aby mohli zase kočovat ,to jim komunisti vzali a tak jim to v rámci restitucí umožnit a zavést domovské právo .
31. 07. 2007 | 17:58

milan napsal(a):

Sociální dávky-ano
Zneužívání-ne
Ještě jsem neviděl v kteremkoliv městě cikána, aby třeba uklízel sníh,hrabal v parku spadené listí a nebo třeba uklízel svinčík na ulici.Spíš k jeho vytváření přispívá.Proč není sociálkou podmíněno podpora-40 hodin úklidových prací pro město týdně a vyplacení až co za tebou bude vidět za práci?Nedávno jsem viděl na vlastní oči v Chrudimi a nejen já,jak se malá cikánata koupala v nedávno zrekonstruované kašně.Bylo vedro,budiž.Po jejich odchodu ve vodě plavalo několik lidských exkrementů.Co vy na to?Kdybych náhodou znal jejich tátu a něco mu o tom řekl,jak by to podle vás dopadlo,pane docente?
31. 07. 2007 | 18:09

wrana napsal(a):

Předlistopadový pracovní režim a cikáni? Pane Havle, žertujete? Všichni byli v invalidních důchodech, to si přece musíte pamatovat.
31. 07. 2007 | 18:38

Jiří K. napsal(a):

Já se musím přiznat, že mám největší obavy z toho, kam až se tento "rómský problém" postupem let dostane. Co se stane, až, řekněme za 50 let, bude mít společnost už docela slušné problémy nějak zabezpečit důchodce (nebo starší nepracující lidi, k tomu holt dojde) a zdravotně postižené? Co se stane, až si někdo položí otázku (schválně ji napíšu poněkud tendenčně), proč by měl vůbec něco dávat Rómům povalujícím se celý den na lavičkách lemujících jeho cestu na šichtu, když jeho staří rodiče sami nemají zdaleka dostatek? Já samozřejmě nevím, co se stane, ale mám ošklivé podezření, že to bude něco hodně a hodně nepěkného...
A jenom poznámka k článku pana Havla - píšete, že naše dávky patří k těm nejmenším v rámci EU. Nu dobrá. Jen by mě zajímalo, jak jsme na tom ve srovnání se zeměmi jako je třeba Anglie, Belgie, Francie, Německo, Finsko. Doufám také, že porovnáváte poměrně k průmernému platu a tamějším životním nákladům, ne jen že přepočtete jejich dávky na Kč.
31. 07. 2007 | 19:02

Tibor napsal(a):

Tohle je snad první článek docenta Havla, který není plný (leckdy laciného) ideologického napadání pravice. Sám se tomu divím, ale souhlasím s obsahem. Možná by bylo dobré otupit pomyslmé hrany ideologií a domluvit se na fungujícím řešení. Navrhuji začít kdekoli, třeba u důchodové reformy.
31. 07. 2007 | 19:38

Winpoj napsal(a):

Omarové?? Nikdo ještě nevymyslel lepší rešení než jejich likvidaci!
31. 07. 2007 | 19:55

Ivan Hochmann napsal(a):

Kam spějete pane Havle-Nesete se na vlně pseudohumanistů apár hloupých politiků,nevidících si ani na svůj nos.Řešení cikánské otázky je úplně prosté.Zajistit dodržování zákonnosti v tomto státě.Aby stejný zákon platil jak pro mne ,tak pro cikána.Nebo roma, jak chcete.ONI si musí uvědomit,že pokud chtějí žít ve slušné ,čistotné a posperující společnosti,musejí se také patřičně chovat a starat.Jinak ať raději nežijí. A nejedná se pouze o romy.Vztahujme toto poučení na všechny,kteří se výše uvedeným řídit nehodlají.Apropö -všimněte si,že media i politici(ti co umejí len kecat) přesně vědí jaké jsou mezi většinou slušných lidí názory na toto téma a přesto se jimi řídit nehodlají .Na hlavní články -Aktuálně- už diskusní komentáře ani nejsou.Doufám,že víte proč. Ivan,
31. 07. 2007 | 21:04

stejskal napsal(a):

Dobrý den, pane Omare,

Vaše poznámka o hromadné likvidaci byla veskrze rasistická. Při příští podobné poznámce Vám znemožním přístup do této diskuse.

Libor Stejskal, editor blogů
31. 07. 2007 | 21:22

elivolna napsal(a):

Pane Havle,mám jedinou otázku, jak chcete s romama (cigánama) pracovat.7.let jsem pracovala v Dětském domově s90% populací cikánů-nemožné věřte mi.Ta práce člověka zničí,když pozná jaký výsledek to je a co úsilí a snahy to stojí.Jisté je jen jedno ,do roku1989 měla větší část cikánů alespon nějaké hygienické návyky,dnes již toto se neodvažují tvrdit.Dnes pracuji ve škole a málo kdo si dovede představit mít pár cikánů ve třídě.Všichni chceme něco co oni nechtějí,chtějí jen bezstarostně žít a to nelze.Obavám se,že jejich myšlení nikdo a nic nezmění.Myslím,že mám dostatečnou skušenost s těmi to občany nejen ve škole ,ale i v normálním životě.
31. 07. 2007 | 21:31

skeptický napsal(a):

Hysterie o Romech je záměrně vyvolávaná různými aktivistickými skupinami a živena spřízněným tiskem.Je to o rozeštvávání lidí,řešení neexistuje, a ani není vůle.Výsledkem je nevole veřejnosti,i občasné extremistické hlasy,které se ruče využijí k dalšímu zpřísňování zákonů.O Cikánech to není.Za zákony se mohou krýt další kriminální elementy,které republiku rozkrádají ve velkém.Jednoho dne se nám sem může nastěhovat celý národ,a nikdo ani nešpitne,protože na to máme zákony.Nás pak odsunou.Komu to prospívá.
31. 07. 2007 | 21:35

Ivan Sommer napsal(a):

Dejte Romům práci pane Havle. Měl jsem možnost před listopadem sledovat pracovní úsilí Romů. Stačilo jim poskytnout pracovní příležitost a občas by se udřeli k smrti. Většinou se ovšem jednalo o práci nekvalifikovanou, popřípadě po zacvičení - montážní linky. Znal jsem ale i romské vysokoškoláky a mám příbuzenstvo romského původu,jehož životní styl je téměř totožný s ostatními občany až na drobné maličkosti, zejména smysl pro muzikálnost. I tehdy se však mnozí Romové vyznačovali odlišnými kulturními tradicemi, to ale působilo spíše jako pozitivní příspěvek k životu společnosti než odpudivě. Vyskytovali se mezi nimi nepochybně kriminální živly jako v ostatní populaci. Ti, co nyní nemají práci, jsou vytlačování na okraj společnosti a více méně kriminalizováni. Kulturní odlišnost podporuje jejich samovolnému shlukování v ghettech. Jenže "poskytnout práci" je v současné společnosti hříchem, každý se přece má starat sám o sebe. Vlastně jsou s nimi podobné problémy, jaké zažívali afroameričané v USA. Asi se trochu zapomíná, že v minulém režimu se Romové nazývali "černí" (obdoba s USA), nyní se slyší spíše označní bílí ovšem pro neromy.
31. 07. 2007 | 21:39

Ivan Hochmann napsal(a):

Pane Havle,ještě něco.Rozdíl mezi vzdělaným a moudrým žijícím u řeky je, že moudrý se naučí plavat.Vzdělaný má prostě smůlu.O bezruké se samozřejmě postaráme.Marně se snažím pochopit,co se děje v hlavách levicových intelektuálů.Paní Triolettová se svým chytrolínem také nehodlali uvěřit, že Stalin je krvelačná bestie a že těm jeho komunistickým pohůnkům není radno co důvěřovat.Musely zemřít miliony lidí a další miliony žít půl století v hrůze ,aby se dnes mohla řešit romská otázka,která by tu nebyla,nebýt levicových bláznů,snílků o nádherné třetí cestě,místo toho ,aby zamezili bezzákonnému prostředí.Buďťe ujištěn pane Havle,půjde-li to takto dál, dostane se nám dalších Leninů a Hitlerů.Toť má reakce na Vaše psaníčka.Ivan
31. 07. 2007 | 21:42

stejskal napsal(a):

Dobrý den, pane docente,

co se týče inteligence Julia Streichera, bylo by docela zajímavé vědět, kde se údaj 77 bodů IQ v Gilbertově publikaci vzal. Takto nízký inteligenční kvocient je již prakticky na hranicí schopnosti člověka postarat se sám o sebe. A to jistě nebyl Streicherův případ.

Většina pramenů uvádí Streicherův IQ na úrovni 102 bodů, což je ovšem i tak sotva lepší průměr.

Ale to samozřejmě není důležité, jen jsem chtěl předejít případným dohadům v další diskusi.

Jsem velmi rád, že někdo z politiků vidí problém soužití "bílé" vetšiny a Romů tak jasnozřivě jako Vy. Budu ještě raději, až některý z nich sebere odvahu a navzdory riziku ztráty mnoha míst na žebříčku popularity se pokusí v duchu těchto úvah jednat.

Ještě jednou mi dovolte, abych Vám sám za sebe poděkoval za to, že nebojíte nazírat tyto věci způsobem, jenž dává naději na jejich řešení.

Mějte se hezky.

Libor Stejskal
31. 07. 2007 | 21:46

Ústečák napsal(a):

To Milan - "Ještě jsem neviděl v kteremkoliv městě cikána, aby třeba uklízel sníh,hrabal v parku spadené listí a nebo třeba uklízel svinčík na ulici." - tak se přijeď podívat k nám do Ústí nad Labem, a přesně to tady uvidíš.
31. 07. 2007 | 21:49

jinec napsal(a):

Pane Havle jako ekonom jistě víte, že peůměrná česká rodina (2 dospělí + děti) potřebuje k jakž takž slušnému životu měsíční příjem cca 25.000 Kč. V ČR toho lze dosáhnout dvěma způsoby:

a) dva dospělí musejí stabilně pracovat

b) musíte mít 6 dětí, nepracovat a brát sociální dávky

Je-li mezi námi skupina lidí (jakéhokoliv původu), která dá vědomě přednost řešení b), pak řešní musíte hledat ve změně jejich motivace. Bohužel se však jedná o skupinu u které je téměř vyloučeno, aby dva dospělí stabilně pracovali. Důvodů je nezpočet a kdo to nevidí, neumí sečíst že 1+1=2.
31. 07. 2007 | 22:04

Apple napsal(a):

Pane Havle!Tentokrat se mi vas clanek libil.Ale,vsichni porad pisou,ze4 to bude trvat roky.Rezim se zmnenil v roce 89 a mame rok 2007.Tolik roku uplynulo a nic se nedeje ,takze kolik let to bude jeste trvat.Pokud vim se timhle tenatem zabyval pan Uhl.Co vlastne vymyslel??Kde je nejaka jeho koncepce??Vzdyt za to bral penize,ne?Ja myslim,ze lidi uz jsou tak nastvani,ze uz mlcet nebudou.Jana
31. 07. 2007 | 22:07

Ivan Hochmann napsal(a):

Ano ...pánové ,jen se plácejte po ramínku a mažte med kolem úst.Naděje na řešení umírá poslední.Kdo se však obklopuje nadějemi,rozhodně nehodlá nic vyřešit.Děkuji páni za poučení.Ivan Hochmann.
31. 07. 2007 | 22:22

Dave napsal(a):

No musim rict, ze me pan Havel docela prijemne prekvapil, konecne ten jeho prispevek byl opravdu bez emoci a bez nejakej levicove demagogie, (kterou na jednu stranu u nej trochu chapu, protoze je to poslanec za CSSD) a pomerne vecny a v hodne vecech uznavam, ze mate pravdu. Napriklad v tom, ze nereseni romske integrace do spolecnosti odnese prave nejvic ta vetsina a i v dalsich vecech mate pravdu.
31. 07. 2007 | 22:50

Vilém Gutfreund napsal(a):

Práce není povinností

Pan Havel opakovaně předvádí, v čem ČSSD nedorostla principů evropské civilizace a zůstala zabředlá v myšlení komunistické normalizace.

Jeden teoretik zabývající se demokracií stanovil jako jedno z lidských práv nutných k uznání společnosti za skutečně demokratickou právo pracovat nebo nepracovat a pobírat sociální dávky. Zdálo se mi to tehdy přehnané, ale domyšleno je negací vydírání spojené s vnucováním nějakých zbytkových činností. To si zvolila ČSSD jako jedinou cestu a výsledky se dostavily - obrovský nárůst sociálně neužitečných lidí, od úředníků po nezaměstnané, jimž ČSSD odmítla v čemkoli pomáhat k uplatnění pod záminkou, že si ho mají najít sami.

Politika ČSSD představovala jen variaci současné politiky ODS a sám si pamatuji, jak právě toto pan Havel vychvaloval jako projev "modernosti". Škromach pak vůbec odmítal vidět následky svého jednání.
31. 07. 2007 | 23:08

stejskal napsal(a):

Dobrý den, pane Hochmanne,

nechci mluvit za pana docenta, nicméně já v žádném případě nezpochybňuji povinnost kohokoliv - bez rozdílu barvy pleti - dodržovat zákony této země. Stejně jako Vám (tedy aspoň myslím, že to takto myslíte) se mi příčí zneužívání našeho - podle mého názoru - příliš stědrého sociálního systému.

I já vidím, že řada Romů (možná dokonce většina, nevím) se takto chová.

Ale zároveň se snažím pochopit, proč to dělají, a co může stát a možná někteří z nás udělat proto, aby se to alespoň u některých změnilo (a tím vůbec nemyslím dávat někomu víc a víc peněz a šanovat jeho kriminální chování). Prostě jak z tohoto začarovaného kruhu ven.

Kde je v této úvaze chyba?

Libor Stejskal
31. 07. 2007 | 23:14

alena-velika napsal(a):

Dobry pozdni vecer,
moc pekna diskuze- osobne jen pridavam
, ze problemy s nar.mensinami nemaji jen v USA {afroamericane], ale i ve VB [Anglii] a zde si uvedomme maji nar.mensiny z celeho sveta ...........Zde tedy resi otazky obdobneho typu a jsou nuceni hledat jakakoliv reseni prispivajici ke zlepseni dosavadniho stavu a
obcanskemu souziti, problem je
tedy tzv,,,na poradu dne" a bude se
do budoucna resit!
31. 07. 2007 | 23:54

Ivan Hochmann napsal(a):

Dobrý den,pane Stejskale,
Všechno už tu někdy bylo.Lidé se liší od opic pouze vtom,že si píší historické eseje,a nehodlají se z nich poučovat.Když jsme zakládali v jedné brněnské čtvrti OF,vkládali jsme naděje do vysokoškolsky vzdělaných lidí.Snad ohnou hřbety a zajedou na západ od našich hranic pro právní pomoc.Jak to dopadlo ...víme -Kontinuita- ,a ODS.Začalo to Čermákem s s končí to bůhvíkde.Nedivte se,romům mají v nás příklad.Tak jako děti v rodičích.Když táta ohlupuje okolí hloupými sliby a chtrnými nadějemi,nepracuje,chlastá,bere úplatky,lže jako Rudé právo,krade kde může ....děťátko nebude jiné...na barvě nesejde.Být cikánem tak se z té Vaší majoritní společnosti zjevím.Nezlobte se, že jsem vám na otázku neodpověděl přímo.Ivan.
31. 07. 2007 | 23:58

stejskal napsal(a):

Ještě jednou dobrý večer, pane Hochmanne,

s tím, co jste napsal, se nedá nesouhlasit. Ale co s tím? Vykašleme se na to? Jen proto, že jsem si představovali věci jednodušší, než ve skutečnosti jsou...

Jen tak mimochodem: také jsem zakládal jedno OF :-)

Mějte se.

Libor Stejskal
01. 08. 2007 | 00:07

jin napsal(a):

Už jsme od kotrmelce ztratili 17 let.Jestli budem chodit pořád okolo cikánů jako okolo horké kaše,tak se bude při jejich rozmnožovací schonosti problém jen zvětšovat.Naši vnuci budou muset živit stádo nevzdělaných,neužitečných cikánů na úrovni zvířátek.Na jednoho pracujícího připadne několik cikánů a důchodců nehledě na to ,že státní zaměstnanci také přibývají jako cikáni.Je to jako když padáme a říkáme,je to ještě dobrý,ale k zemi už moc nezbývá...
01. 08. 2007 | 00:10

ivan gabal napsal(a):

Protože jsem byl přímo panem docentem osloven, zapojím se do diskuse ve snaze trochu něco přidat do mlýna:
1. Předně musím pogratulovat Aktuálně, protože se mi zdá, že se v jejich pojektu blogů začíná řešit a tudíž pracovat. To si myslím, že je na naše poměry novinka. Možná i díky tomu jak pan Stejskal otevřeně "maže" hulváty. Docent Havel v textu poctivě váží argumenty a myslím, že se mu bude lépe prokládat mocně ironické texty věcnou argumentací.A má pravdu. Tolik poklony.
2. Musím pana docenta trochu doplnit, protože zapoměl, že jejich kabinet se po váhání rozhodl k investici do zmapování, analýzy a návrh koncepca integrace vyloučených lokalit. My jsme jako firma tendr MPSV vyhráli a jako analytici popsali situaci a navrhli pár věcí co s tím. Mezitím se kolo demokracie pohnulo a tak uvidíme, kam věc posune současná administrativa.
3. Nejsme ani tak experti na romskou problematiku, ale analytická firma, která hledá řešení a policy planning problémů. Souhlasím s autorem, že ten problém musíme řešit zejména v zájmu celé české společnosti. Začíná se kumulovat a zasahovat další oblasti mimo vlastní romské vyloučené enklávy a jejich obyvatele - například českou politiku od suterénu až do senátu.
4. V přemýšlení panu docentovi vypadlo školství, které se dnes projevuje jako aktér mezigeneračního přenosu sociálního vyloučení a nezaměstnanosti, a přitom v Americe to byl hlavní nástroj mobility dětí z černošských ghet nahoru a za prací.
5. Vypadla nebo zůstává stranou malá invenčnost a energie úřadů práce, skrz které prochází velké prostředky, které by měly být také poměřovány výsledky, což se asi neděje. Statičnost úřadů práce a politiky zaměstnanosti je více součástí problému, než jeho řešením, tady opravdu minulá administrativa byla pasivní.
A na závěr, děkuji za profesorský titul, ale nemám jej a doufám, že se tak ani nechovám, protože profesorů na veřejné otázky máme v tomto státě víc, než zdrávo. Nepoužívám ani svůj doktorát. Ale děkuji za poctu, kterou snad lze připsat na vrub práci, kterou jsme udělali s týmem ve firmě, ale i s úředníky z různých státních institucí, kteří byli odvážní a zmapování prosadili. Na nás zbylo jen to udělat. Děkuji panu docentovi a většině diskutujících za věcný tón a těším se na jeho další ironický kus, po kterém se zase zdravě vzedmou vášně.
01. 08. 2007 | 00:43

skeptický napsal(a):

Nabývám nepříjemného dojmu,že na řešení je pozdě.Různé aktivistické skupiny s vlivnými sponsory se zdají tento problém záměrně pěstovat,a rasovými zákony naruby umlčovat kohokoliv ,kdo by chtěl nazvat problém pravým jménem.Léčit se dá nemoc pouze správným určením diagnosy.Teď nám nějací samozvaní karatelé z OSN budou vyčítat klecová lůžka,a nezaměstnaná učitelka,která zbohatla na knížkách pro děti,segregaci škol,a nenajde se nikdo,kdo by je poslal kam patří.Jejich činnost se nedá nazvat jinak,než sabotáží,a slouží k podkopávání států.Tady se jedná o vyšší zájmy,Cikáni jsou chudáci,a jsou v této hře pouze zneužíváni.
01. 08. 2007 | 00:43

leporelo napsal(a):

A co jste tím vlastně chtěl říct, pane Havle? Doufám že ne to, že normálně žijící většina "musí" neustále platit nenormálně žijící menšinu, která se nikdy nebude živit prací, protože to prostě nemá v genech?
01. 08. 2007 | 00:57

PeDe napsal(a):

Dobré ráno, chci jen připomenout, že v jednoduchosti řešení je genialita. Pane Havle, zkuste na chvíli vypnout a rozhlédněte se. Až to uděláte nechte hlavu
vztyčenou a neklopte zrak. Pak možná pochopíte co se tu děje a jaké potíže má ten v podhradí. Stát má chránit hodnoty vytvořené člověkem a člověka samého před těmi co jeho úsilí maří. Nástrojů k ochraně je dost, ale nejsou důsledně používány. Sousedi v Evropě řeší to samé. Zkusme pro začátek něco opsat.
Ale nediskutujme a něco dělejme. Může být už i pozdě. Poctiví lidé si dlouho
nenechají dělat na hlavu a aby jim někdo
kazil jejich dílo a to stále i beztrestně.
01. 08. 2007 | 00:57

Acidburn napsal(a):

No vidím, že i pan docent se přidal do řešení romské otázky - a po vzoru ČSSD zkritizoval úplně všechno a řešení - žádné. Congratulation, to je teda nářez. Bodejť byste, pane Havle, přinesl řešení - řada vašich argumentů je neuvěřitelně plytkých.

Takže jen pro představu, řešení je komplexním přístupem ke všem lidem bez rozdílu vytvořit takové prostředí, kde bude drtivá většina lidí motivována k práci, zodpovědnosti za svůj život a k respektování platného práva.

Proto žádné jednostranné řešení typu: vystěhujeme všechny Romy nebo naopak: dáme všem Romům práci fungovat nikdy nebude, protože to vytváří diskriminační prostředí (pozitivní diskriminace je pitomost).

Takže, z vašich shora uvedených nápadů můžu rovnou škrtnout nápad zavádět zde represivní model postihování příživnictví. To, že jste toto pochvalně zmínil, o vás leccos vypovídá (ten socialismus je zažranej, co?).
První krok - vyrušit jakoukoli pozitivní diskriminaci.
Druhý krok - sociální dávky, dle vás nejnižší v Evropě (a jaké máme platy, pane docente, taky nejnižší v Evropě? A co životní úroveň po 40 letech totáče? Ach jo, ta demagogie.), upravit třeba dle návrhu ODS na "státem zaručený příjem" a negativní zdanění pracujících. Potom totiž řada Romů (ale i dalších lidí dnes se flákajících doma) zjistí, že je výhodnější aspoň zametat ulice nebo uklízet, protože tento minimální výdělek nebudou mít až do nějaké výše vůbec zdaněný a přitom nepřijdou o sociální dávku v podobě státem zaručeného příjmu. Tedy, nastavit sociální dávky odlišně od vašeho 8 let používaného modelu, kdy se sociální dávka lišila od platu uklízečky asi o 150 Kč (pak se nedivte, že jen málokdo pracoval).

Třetí krok - tvrdě potírat kriminalitu tím, že rodiče budou odpovídat za zločiny svých nezletilých dětí. Doplňte to snížením trestní odpovědnosti mladistvých, posílenými hlídkami policie v problémových ghettech a výsledek se po nějakém čase dostaví.

Čtvrtý krok - prosazovat platné právo ve všech směrech vůči každému občanu ČR, bez rozdílu barvy pleti či rasy. Neplatí pan XY nájemné, vybydlel byt? Výpověď z nájmu a náhrada škody. Pan XY nic nemá? Tak potom bude mít kratší sociální dávky. Zdá se vám, pane Havle, toto asociální? Pak se chytněte za nos, protože zatímco Romy si nikdo vystěhovat nedovolí, u gádžů (tedy normálních bílých) toto funguje zcela nemilosrdně. Kolik jste, pane Havle, viděl Romů - bezdomovců? Ani jednoho? A kolik jste viděl bílých bezdomovců? Že jich je plná Praha a ještě okolo? Dvojí metr v praxi.

Nelegální ghetta? Ta sama o sobě nejsou problém většinové společnosti, jsou problémem těch, kteří v těchto ghettech na úrovni středověku žijí. Možná jim ten styl vyhovuje. Nebo byste snad sáhl do státní kasy a dal jim pár milionů na byty? Až je propijí, stejně nebudou mít nic.

Krok šestý - podporovat nutnost nést odpovědnost za svůj vlastní život. Stát tu není od toho, aby vodil každého občana za ručičku od kolébky ke hrobu (pravda, za totáče u nás či za Mussoliniho v Itálii tomu tak bylo, ale za jakou cenu?). Chceš se vzdělávat? Běž do školy. Chceš pracovat? Běž na nějaký rekvalifikační kurz pořádaný Úřadem práce, manuálně pracující dovážíme až z Ukrajiny, proč bys nemohl pracovat ty? Námitky o "bludných kruzích chudoby" neberu - existuje dost Romů ,kteří byli schopní se integrovat a vymanit ze své bídy.
Jinými slovy - starej se sám o sebe a bude ti dobře. A naopak - neposíláš děti do školy? Nedostaneš sociální dávky. Neplatíš nájemné? Běž bydlet pod most. Kradeš, fetuješ, děláš bordel? Šup s tebou do nápravného zařízení, to tě přejde.
Romové často neuvažují za horizont jednoho týdne či měsíce, pokud nebudou nuceni (a většina jich nebude na takové úrovni, že se k tomu dopracují sami) toto uvažování překonat, pak se romská otázka nevyřeší.
V polovině 90.let zde byly pokusy vyjít romům vstříc - stavěly se pro ně speciální školy a školky a pořádaly se rekvalifikační kurzy - bohužel s mizivým výsledkem (nátlak nebyl komplexní, vynucování školní docházky - žádné).

Tohle je šest kroků, které je třeba provést v krátkém časovém rozpětí. Po prvotním šoku, s jakým je každá velká reforma nutně spojena, se to časem vyvrbí a problémů ubyde. A můžeme se samozřejmě bavit o celé řadě kroků dalších. A jde pouze o náhled na celou "slavnou" romskou otázku z pohledu právních norem.
01. 08. 2007 | 01:00

Nori napsal(a):

Tento článek je poměry pana Havla rozhodně nadprůměrný. Jestli ovšem sám opravdu nevidí žádná (byť dílčí) řešení, měl by se zkusit přeci jen více zamyslet. Nebo odvrhnout svoji životní ideologii, která ho zavádí do slepé uličky. Jinak by mě zajímalo, co chtěl říct tou úvodní poznámkou o rasové předurčenosti inteligence. Myslí si copak, že Cikáni mají opravdu medián IQ někde kolem 100? To, že jsou lidé dnes alergičtí na zmiňování (některých) rasových rozdílů, můžu při troše dobré vůle pochopit. Ale pokud se někdo tváří, že chce řešit problém, měl by ho alespoň umět analyzovat.
01. 08. 2007 | 01:25

alena-velika napsal(a):

Ano, naprosto souhlasim s predchozim
nazorem a dodavam jen, ze kazdy
clovek ve spolecnosti ma moznost
ovlivnit svuj osud tedy i zpusob zivota
sveho -potrebna je take osveta, vzdelavani + reforma a vymera prislusnych opatrenich <norem..
01. 08. 2007 | 01:42

alena-velika napsal(a):

dodatek - muj souhlas byl k
prispevku - to Acidburn --
------pravdep. VS -student
01. 08. 2007 | 01:48

dejv napsal(a):

Julius Streicher
IQ 106,
cili nadprumer
http://www.gnxp.com/MT2/arc...

bohuzel z vasich clanku spise vyplyva, ze vy se nikoliv jen hloupe tvarite, ....
01. 08. 2007 | 02:03

kladivo na Odesaky napsal(a):

Alenko, VS student za penize vsech? Jakto, ze pak kritizuje soc. davky? VS studium je u nas (s vyjimkou soukromych skol, kde vsak studujou ti co se nedostali na statni skoly) v podstate socialni davkou!

Navic to co napsal Acidburn je teoreticky krasne a cte se to jako z ucebnice, ale v praxi je to passé.
"Tedy, nastavit sociální dávky odlišně od vašeho 8 let používaného modelu, kdy se sociální dávka lišila od platu uklízečky asi o 150 Kč (pak se nedivte, že jen málokdo pracoval)."

Pane Acidburn, je vysoka minimalni mzda 7800 korun hrubeho anebo jsou vysoke davky? Pane Acidburn kolik cini dnes existecni minimum, kolik podpory v nezamestnanosti a jaka je jejich vyse s ohledem na faktor casu. A na zaver se nemohu nezeptat - na jake vysi by mela byt ta minimalni mzda za 40 hodin. pracovni tyden.
01. 08. 2007 | 02:17

dejv napsal(a):

navic staci pulka davky v poukazkach na potraviny a zbytek v penezich, a za pozitivni priklad davat predlistopadovou ghetizaci a nereseni problemu cikanu, to snad nemyslite vazne,vy jste skutecne jen demagog a ostuda ceskeho skolstvi
01. 08. 2007 | 02:19

kladivo na ODS luzu napsal(a):

dejve, tos mu to nandal! troufam si rict ze proti Havlovi jsi jen mala bezvyznamna nula se vzdelanim max. stredoskolskym.
01. 08. 2007 | 02:19

dejv napsal(a):

Resenim je rozhodne motivace, jak pise acidburn. Pokud nebude tato minorita citit, ze tim, ze zacne pracovat si polepsi a tim, ze zustane bez prace se jeho situace zhorsovat, pak se z teto situace nikdy nedostanou. Tohle mysleni, jake predvadi pan Havel je skutecne paradoxni. Na jedne strane se prezentuje jako lidumil, na druhe strane jeho kroky vedou lidi pouze k zavislosti na statu a dalsimu a dalsimu kriveni ekonomiky, ktere v konecnem dusledku pak odnesou ti nejchudsi. Je to jako s kolegou Kreckem, stavi se za cast vyvolenych nadekretovanych najemniku, vcetne sebe samozrejme, ale to, ze tim umele zvysuje cenu bydleni pro jinou cast obyvatel mu vubec nevadi.
01. 08. 2007 | 02:32

dejv napsal(a):

“Socialism is the same as Communism, only better English”

George Bernard Shaw
01. 08. 2007 | 02:38

Jirka napsal(a):

Pro Milana:

Tys nikdy nevidel cikana pracovat? Nevim, kde se pohybujes, ale ja jich videl spoustu. Jen tak na matkou, pri tech nedavnych vedrech u nas pokladala parta cikanu optiku, makali jak blazni, zatimco nas bilej soused, kterej je nezamestnanej se opaloval na zahrade. V drogerii nedaleko pracuje jedna prodavacka, cikanka uz asi deset let. A souhlasim, ze ne kazdej cikan se hlasi k tomu, ze je cikan - znam takoveho holice .
01. 08. 2007 | 03:01

Ládik napsal(a):

Pane Havle, Vaše články jsou příliš obecné a někdy mám pocit, že zobecňujete něco, o čem toho moc nevíte. Já jsem technik - na zobecňování si dávám pozor a upřednostňuji realitu.
Zkusím použít analogický příklad. V Jihoafrické republice nejsou černoši původními obyvateli, těmi jsou Sanové, Xhosové a Křováci (hnědí, ne černí). Dále přišli Evropané a po nich od severovýchodu černoši. Dnes jsou původní obyvatelé v rezervacích (převážně v Kalahari, Botswana)- to je analogie k Indiánům v USA; poměr bělochů a černochů je cca 1:8. Běloši už vyklidili ve prospěch černochů např. centrum Johannesburgu, postavili si na předměstí moderní čtvrť Sandton (běžte se tam podívat stojí to za to). Myslím si, že tohle je ta správná analogie přibližného vývoje k ČR a cikánům - kulhá jen v tom, že cikánů je méně (ale pozor, mezi jejich počty po válce a dnes je geometrická řada). JAR je více demokratická země, než náš komunistický píseček. Není to pěkná vyhlídka do budocnosti, to soužití s cikány. Váš článek, p. Havle, je pěkný, ale o ničem. Jeťe se podívat na realitu, zpáteční letenka je čtvrtina Vašeho platu.
01. 08. 2007 | 05:14

milan napsal(a):

Jirka:psal jsem o zneužívání soc.dávek.A opravdu si myslím,že by bylo užitečnější vyplácení těchto, podmínit nějakou veřejně prospěšnou prací.Samozřejmě že jsem viděl cikány jako kopáče.Ale ti pracují za peníze a nejsou na dávkách.A zase tak mnoho jich není.A pokud vím (po rozhovoru s jejich zaměstnavatelem) jedná se převážně o Slovenské cikány,tedy neco jako Ukrajinci.Přijeli si pouza vydělat penízky.
Ústečák:tak si to patrně u vás v Ústí už tak zařídili.U nás to zatím k vidění není.Můžeš mne sepsout,ale tuto zkušenost prostě mám a vidím to deně.
01. 08. 2007 | 06:48

georg napsal(a):

Mě by zajímalo, jak to řeší v jiných státech. Vždyť cikány nesnášejí nikde. Kanada a Británie nás poučovali a jak se tam nastěhovalo pár cikánů, okamžitě zavedli víza. Myslím si, že proticikánské nálady se zvětšují po tom, jak takoví hloupí lidé, jak Džamila a pod. začnou mluvit o pozitívní diskriminaci. Jak to řeší jinde?
01. 08. 2007 | 07:01

Jan napsal(a):

Do udělala vaše soc. vláda za 8 let pro Romy?
01. 08. 2007 | 07:18

Ládik napsal(a):

georgovi: podívej se o 4 příspěvky výš, co udělali bílí s černochy v JARu.
01. 08. 2007 | 07:49

Ládík napsal(a):

georgovi: anebo se podívej, co se děje s Kosovem - historické území Slovanů zaplnili přemnožení kolegové Romů a vyhlásí republiku (se souhlasem amíků)..
01. 08. 2007 | 07:52

NObody napsal(a):

Před pár lety si mi jeden 18ti letý INALIDNÍ důchodce romského etnika stěžoval, že nemůže odcestovat do Španělska za prací, protože by se mu prodražilo dojíždění do ČR pro důchod a tak raději jezdil vlakem 2x týdně "kapsařit" do Prahy...
Tehdy mě napadlo, jestli by nestálo za to zaplatit takovým lidem jednosměrnou letenku "na jih" mělo by to výhodu i v tom, že by mnohem lépe "splynuli" s původním obyvatelstvem a pokud by pak dané etnikum někomu dělalo problémy určitě by se to neodvozovalo od barvy pleti.
Zkrátka my lidi jsme víceméně každý jiný a problém nastavá až v okamžiku, kdy je ta individuální odlišnost u úzké skupiny lidí poměrně výrazná.
Jednoduše řečeno pokud v rámci populace krade jeden jedinec z 1000 tak to není totéž jako když krade 10 jedinců ze sta...
01. 08. 2007 | 07:54

Ládik napsal(a):

Vypadá to, že maluju čerta na zeď, ale ten čert není jen namalovaný, on je živý a rychle se množí...
01. 08. 2007 | 07:55

Ládik napsal(a):

S tím jihem to je pravda - čím jižnější národ, tím slabší vztah k práci (platí i pro Belgii - Vlámové kontra Valoni). Čím víc na jih, tím rychlejší množení - příroda to koriguje kratším životem. Jižní typy na sever moc nejezdí - místní lidé tam jsou pracovitější a přímější, žádní "bukaři" někde za bukem jako p. Jiří Havel. Vikingové za krádež sekali ruce, dobrý zvyk, měl by se obnovit.
01. 08. 2007 | 08:04

katty napsal(a):

jak chcete trestat uzavřenou do sebe většinou semknutou komunitu, kde být ve vězení "je in", kdy tato komunita je nepřátelsky naladěná k majoritě, a regulační mechanismy chápe jako porušování lidských práv?
Můžete jejich členy zavřít, ale jejich komunita je za to nevyloučí, naopak, přijme je zpět a bude je krýt a podporovat v další činnosti, ti lidé nemají co ztratit.

škoda že si nemůžete přečíst článek paní Mgr.Gjuričové, ta o tom píše moc hezky ve veřejné správě 29/07
01. 08. 2007 | 08:05

Jiří napsal(a):

Základní problém Romů je nízká kvalifikace,před listopadem 1989 většina z nich pracovala ve stavebnictví,odkud je bez velkých potíží vytlačili Ukrajinci.Snaha o pracovní zapojení Romů by se asi neobešla bez státních zakázek s povinností pro firmy je zaměstnat spojená s mnohem přísnějším dohledem na zaměstnávání "nelegálů".Nejpodstatnější je však nutnost změnit stav,kdy naprostá většina Romů končí ve zvláštních školách a jen s obtížemi je absolvuje.Je potřeba zavést systém podpory vzdělávání u Romů a podpořit vznik jejich elit.Dokud nebudou mít mladí Romové před očima příklady romských sportovců,policistů,vědců,politiků,novinářů a umělců neuvěří v možnost fungování sociálního"výtahu" a nebudou motivováni k vzdělávání a práci na sobě.Pokud vím,tak např. po listopadu vznikl projekt vzdělávání mladých Romek v jakýchsi rodinných školách,aby působily na své děti a podpořily jejich motivaci k vzdělávání.Na druhou stranu je třeba důsledně trvat na dodržování pravidel platných pro všechny občany a neumožňovat Romům unikat od jejich plnění.
01. 08. 2007 | 08:06

NObody napsal(a):

Nebo pak jen využít toho množení asi jako jeden můj známý ten se oženil s romkou (ovšem slušná rodina její otec úspěšný podnikatel všichni sourozenci poctivě makají) a pak snad bude ta integrace potomků s ovlivněnými geny snažší...tedy pokud nepřevládnou ty kočovné...
01. 08. 2007 | 08:07

bbb napsal(a):

Zájímalo by mně jak někteří diskutující chtějí motivovat k práci Romy kteří pracovat nechtějí (a nemusí to být jen Romové).Snížením sociálních dávek jen zvýšíte jejich kriminalitu, ale ne chuť pracovat. A řekl bych, že v dnešním kriminále je to nenaučí. Tím, ale nechci říci, že jsou všichni stejní. Mám zkušenost s firmou vedenou Romem a zaměstnávající Romy zabývající se čistícimi pracemi. Byli perfektní.
01. 08. 2007 | 08:24

Patriot napsal(a):

Představme si pomyslnou osu společnosti. Jeden extrém - všichni mluví pravdu,dodrží své dané slovo, jsou poctiví v práci i v životě,vzorně vychovávají své potomky, touží po vzdělání, váží si a chrání život atd. , Druhý extrém - všichni lžou a kradou, nepracují,nemají zájem o vzdělání,atd. A já se ptám : ke kterému extrému má naše společnost dnes blíže ?
01. 08. 2007 | 08:44

T. napsal(a):

Mně se článek pana Havla líbí. Velmi si cením, že rozumně a uctivě reaguje na "zaručená řešení", která se porůznu objevují mezi lidmi. Ano, ta zaručená řešení jsou líbivá, přímočará a pochopitelná - mají ovšem malou vadu, a sice jsou bezzubá a až na naprosté výjimky sama o sobě neúčinná. Splňují jenom to, že se hezky vyjímají v diskuzích...:)
Aniž bych měl nějaký svůj zaručený recept, jsem rád, že se o Romech diskutuje. Je mi jasné, že tento problém nás bude provázet ještě dlouho a zažijeme ještě hodně více či méně xenofobních výpadů. Tento příspěvek pana Havla považuji za laické shrnutí, které přináší rozumné argumenty a inspiruje. Bylo by super, kdyby jich bylo víc.
01. 08. 2007 | 08:45

Old napsal(a):

Řešení mám, nedávat těm, co dělají děti jen pro různé přídavky na nové děti.
01. 08. 2007 | 08:52

Karel S. napsal(a):

TO Jiří. Již neexistují žádné zvláštní školy jenom pro Romy. Existují školy se zaměřením na všechny děti s vážnými zdravotními problémy. Nicméně toto zde již zaznělo i z příspěvku jedné paní - učitelky.
Rovněž zde v dalším příspěvku zaznělo i to, že daný problém je celosvětový tzn., že i problém EU. Proto navrhuji, aby se v rámci EU vytvořila pracovní skupina, která využije zkušeností ze všech zemí EU a z toho musí vyjít nějaké výstupy, které alespoň budou vycházet z reality a ne z blábolů jedniců, kteří mají na vše jasná řešení.
Zároveň souhlasím i s těmi názory které:
- jasně upozorňují na vážnost problému a nutnost jej začít fundovaně řešit
- nehází všechny do jednoho pytle (zde by bylo možno hledat i způsob jak těch kladů využít pro přizpůsobení nepřizpůsobivých - proč jsou lepší, když kořeny mají většinou stejné)
- kteří hovoří o tom, že populismus napříč politickým spektrem je svinstvo s krátkozrakými a nedozírnými následky (navrhuji volit stranu ať napravo nebo nalevo, která jasně řekne co a jak ve volebním období konkrétně udělá s daným problém, jak jej chce alespoň začít řešit). V dané chvíli si všichni myslí, že středobodem dění jsou daně, ale co se stane, až skutečně dojde k populační explozi nepřizpůsobivých - za několik let pak skutečně nebude na nic.

PROTO TLAČME NA POLITIKY AŤ ZAČNOU PROVÁDĚT KONKRÉTNÍ KROKY, NEBO JE NEVOLME - DEJME JIM TO VYČUCHAT. Ahoj všem. Karel
01. 08. 2007 | 08:54

jjaro napsal(a):

Pro nemakačenky včetně bílé špíny bych postavil pracovní tábory a tam bych je pod bejkovcem učil dělat. Pokud by nepracovali, tak by nedostali nažrat.
01. 08. 2007 | 08:55

Silvie napsal(a):

Nevěřím, že existuje nějaká možnost, jak změnit mentalitu cikánů. Nepodařilo se to ani represí bolševikům, kteří za zahálku zavírali. Tento problém prostě nemá řešení, protože uvedené etnikum má geneticky hluboce zakódováno žít pouze přítomností, nemyslet na budoucnost, jeho hodnotový systém je zvrácený, odmítá vzdělání, má odpor k práci a řádu, je nezodpovědné. Jistě se najdou i výjimky ,které musí majoritě neustále dokazovat, že nejsou stejné, jako jejich soukmenovci. Často se vrací ke svým kořenům i cikánské děti adoptované slušnými rodiči a od malička řádně vedené, což jsem viděla v praxi.
01. 08. 2007 | 09:01

Khan napsal(a):

Všechno začíná už vězením,když se tam mají dobře(dokonce lépe než doma),tak nemají zničeho strach.Určitě nechci vězení jako třeba v Thajsku,ale přísný a tvrdý režim by mnohé odradil od kriminality.Až bude mít (jakýkoliv) člověk z vězení strach nebude krást,sociální dávky(patřičně snížené-pouze a jen doplatek do životního minima k minimální mzdě) jej neuživí,tak pak je jediný možný příjem práce.A na práci je potřeba vzdělání-u cikánů je možné jedině internátní výchovou cikánské mládeže(klidně placenou kompletně státem,protože tato investice k něčemu určitě je)a za dvě tři generace bude vystaráno.Vše je o tom,nebát se zahraničních "ochránců lidských práv" a udělat si doma pořádek
01. 08. 2007 | 09:02

Jarda napsal(a):

Je dobré, že se o problému lidí majících sociální problémy hovoří a dává se prostor pro nejširší paletu pohledů. Určitě ale každý musí uznat, že pouhá ekonomická stránka (výše sociálních dávek a jiných příspěvků) neřeší nic pokud nebude provázena systémovým opatřením v současnosti. Systém v tomto případě musí být nastavený tak, aby neřešil jen momentální stav, ale motivoval lidi přemýšlet přes horizont týdne, měsíce, roku.. . Jestli se nejsme a nebudeme schopni domluvit na uplatňování pravidel vedoucích k zavádění režimu návyků nezbytných pro život ve společnosti, pak ještě dlouho budeme všichni doplácet a stále více na část společnosti, kterou jako lidé přece nemůžeme trvale izolovat a vyčlenit.
01. 08. 2007 | 09:04

matkamoudrosti napsal(a):

Hrstka parazitů, dělat nechtěji, až na několik vyjímek, všechno berou jako svůj majetek a jakmile je někde nezamčeno, tak si ho berou. Znám jich pár a to je zajímavý, ti si práci najdou.
01. 08. 2007 | 09:15

gejmik napsal(a):

vyresit to jako na slovensku skrouhnout soc. davky na nejakou max. castku rekneme treba 10tis. na domacnost(byt. jednotku)
01. 08. 2007 | 09:23

karel napsal(a):

stejskal: Streichorovo IQ 102 je přepočítané koeficientem věku.
01. 08. 2007 | 09:30

V.K. napsal(a):

Z článku pana Havla jsem zmaten. To, co se navrhuje k řešení romské problematiky nakonec všechno zpochybňuje. Sám ovšem prohlašuje, že není dost fundovaný na to, aby navrhl opravdu to správné řešení. Já také nevidím řešení, ale to přece nemůže být důvod tvrdit, jak to dělají někteří opravdoví rasisté, že jediným řešením je to "konečné řešení", které svého času prováděli nacisté. Tak snad abychom už konečně nějaké slušné řešení našli, ne?
01. 08. 2007 | 09:38

Krabice napsal(a):

Podívejme se na Kosovo.Kolik v měm žilo Albánců v roce 1947 a kolik jich tam žije za 60 let?
Až tady bude žít 1 milion Romů a američtí senátoři se budou nudit, tak se dočkáme věcí.
01. 08. 2007 | 09:40

IQ 132 bez korekce na stáří napsal(a):

Obávám se, že už byla překročena hranice, kdy se dal problém s Cikány korektně a efektivně řešit (jsem už starší člověk, takže výraz Rom je pro mne cizí), takže se přikláním k myšlence, že pokud se nesmíříme s výhledem na destrukci naší společnosti (v nejlepším případě na rajonozaci s různým typem obyvatelstva, tedy bílými a černými ghety), budou naše děti čekat na na nějakého Kobu, nebo Dolfíka jako na smilování. A pozitivní poznatek? Zcela určitě nedojde k vymření populace na historickém území Čech a Moravy.
01. 08. 2007 | 09:46

ok napsal(a):

Tak nám pan Havel a to jako obvykle, nic nového neřekl.Za co bere tento člověk peníze, to mi je záhadou.
01. 08. 2007 | 09:56

skeptický napsal(a):

Ono to není daleko.Televize zveřejnila před několika lety odhad statistického úřadu,kde v r.2050 tu budeme populačně 1 : 1.
O právo na sebeurčení ale z principu věci asi žádat nebudou.Na Slovensku zkrouhli dávky,tak se stěhují sem.Jak je to možné?
01. 08. 2007 | 09:59

MeGab napsal(a):

Jelikož cikánský problém zašel až příliš daleko, je třeba být při jeho řešení příslušně tvrdý. Přesvědčováním a argumenty nedonutíme tu tragicky vysokou většinu nepřizpůsobivých Cikánů opustit jejich životní styl založený na parazitování na naší společnosti. Pouze přesvědčování a argumentaci je možné využít jen u těch lidí, jejichž rozumový aparát daný výchovou a vzděláním je schopen tento způsob akceptovat.
Pokud většinová společnost neuvidí, že se tvrdě vyžaduje výrazné omezení tohoto staletého parazitování, radikalizuje se (opět, stejně jako tomu bylo v dřívějších dobách, kdy přetekla trpělivost) a tvrdostí si svůj požadavek vymůže sama. Tomuto řešení se pak ale bude říkat za dalších x let genocida nebo pogrom a to žádný rozumný člověk včetně nás dvou nemůže chtít!
01. 08. 2007 | 10:04

Jiří napsal(a):

Přistěhoval jsem se do Mostu v severních čechách.Do této doby jsem nebyl nijak rasisticky naladěn, cikáni mi sice vadily, ale to co jsem poznal tady, mě udělalo docela tvrdým rasistou.Když jsem nastoupil do zaměstnání, nechápal jsem jak se vyjadřují mí celkem dost staří kolegové k cikánum, řek jsem si jak tihle lidé můžou být takoví rasisti, dnes už to vím, po roce práce ve službách se už nedivím a vidím to úplně stejně.
Kdybych měl popisovat mé zkušenosti z cikány, tak bych psal a nemělo by to konce.
Opravdu přátelé, řešení není a oni se NIKDY nezcivilizují!! Znám jedinné řešení, ale to ostatně asi většina, ale nahlas se vyslovit nedá.Jsem věřící člověk a kdyby to šlo vyslovit,bych to i přes to vyslovil. Dejte na má slova, za pár let to přeroste všem přes hlavu a skončí to hodně velkými nepokoji, ne-li v občanskou válku. Pokud se dnes nezastaví populace cikánů, řešení je dát přídavky na maximálně dvě děti, tak se opravdu máme na co těšit.Děti nemám, ale jelikož nejsem sobec, tak myslím na děti všech ostatních a ti to odnesou jistě nejvíc....
Naši sousedé Slováci to alespoň nějak řeší, co se stalo, Slovenští cikáni se stěhují do česka kde jim naši vládní činitelé jdou naproti s otevřenou náručí.
Jsem euroskeptik a jen doufám že se opět hranice mezi státy budou střežit a nebudou vpouštěni živlové do naší krásné země.
Jen prosím a žádám lidi, nenechte to dojít hodně daleko a něco s tím dělejte než to přeroste v krvavý konflikt.
Nakaženou společnost musíme zavčas léčit, pokud k léčbě nedojde, nastoupí chyrurgové a budou muset amputovat....jistě mi většina čtenářů rozumí....
Vím že léky jsou, ale musí se najít politické zřízení které je začne aplikovat....
01. 08. 2007 | 10:21

neo napsal(a):

3% populace v ČR tvoří Romové, žije jich zde cca 250-300.000.
25% z celkového počtu Romů žije v Severních Čechách.
21%z celkového počtu Romů žije na Severní Moravě.
47% bytů obývaných Romy není vybaveno ani splachovacím WC. 40 m2
bytové plochy obývá v průměru 6,9 Romů.
Až 30% manželství v některých romských skupinách uzavírají příbuzní.
6% romských žen poprvé rodí mezi 14 a 16 lety.
19% romských žen poprvé rodí v 16 letech.
Až 4 interrupce v průměru připadají na jednu romskou ženu.
60% z dětí umístěných v dětských domovech je romské národnosti.
Přes 50% romských dětí se učí ve zvláštních školách.
22% romských dětí propadá v 1. třídě.
25% romských dětí ve věku 6-7 let je v pásmu verbální debility.
56% Romů nemá ani základní vzdělání.
32,7% Romů má základní vzdělání.
8% Romů se vyučí v oboru.
2,5% Romů má středoškolské vzdělání.
0,8% Romů má vysokoškolské vzdělání.
75-85% Romů je nezaměstnaných.
60% Romů je nezaměstnaných déle než 3 roky.
30% dospělých Romů se živí nelegálním způsobem.
60% dospělých vězňů ve věznicích jsou osoby romské národnosti.
75% se Romové podílí na kriminalitě (přičemž v některých
lokalitách např. co se kapesních krádeží týká dosahuje až 95%).
30% pouličních prostitutek má romskou národnost.
25% pouličních romských prostitutek má za pasáka svého příbuzného

Jsem rasista, když chci, aby byly konečně zrušeny přídavky na děti a nebylo možno se živit plozením dětí? Aby byla zrušena mateřská a rodičovská a byly nahrazeny daňově,aby bylo možné uživit v pohodě vlastní rodiny a nepodporovat rozmnožování nepřizpůsobivých občanů? Aby jim nebyly přidělovýny byty zdarma a pokud neplatí nájem aby byli vystěhováni?(mě taky nikdo zdarma nic nedá).
01. 08. 2007 | 10:28

Moucha napsal(a):

Myslím, že ještě dříve než důchodová reforma, by se měl vyřešit problém s dlouhodobě nezaměstnanými, což jsou hlavně Romové. Důchodci a budoucí důchodci, celý život pracují a odvádějí státu peníze - Romové jen berou a hodně. Populace většiny roste a roste HDP, zdá se že bude pak na důchody. Ale roste také romská nevzdělaná a asi nevzdělavatelná, nepracující a pozor! velmi propadající drogám nebezpečná populace a jestli se tento problém nebude rychle a radikálně řešit, pak nezbudou peníze nikdy na nic a najednou budeme mít válku v ulicích, ala Francie. Prioritní problém - Romové a další dlouhodobí nemakačenkové velmi odírající stát, teprve pak řešit rozumnou důchodovou reformu.
01. 08. 2007 | 10:29

Ivan Hochmann napsal(a):

Nemiluji dlouhé komentáře,ať je napíší jiní,rád se s nimi ztotožním.Ptal jste se pane Stejskale na řešení.O pár řádků výše je popsal Acidburn.Nechápu proč se praktické jednoduchosti a názývání věcí pravým jménem tolik bráníte. A mnohé záležitosti jdou řešit jednoduše.Není potřeba stáda sociologů, právníků,všemožných znalců a poradců. Ti na důkaz své důležitosti problém rozpitvají ,zaparagrafují a odloží.Zabalené,uložené hovno při rozbalení akorát více smrdí.Připadá mě jako kdyby lidé na něco čekali.Společnost lidská na něco čeká.Ta naše majoritní-bílá.Je prohnilá,líná,žije si nad poměry a na dluh.Je to celosvětový problém.Podívejte se do jižních států USA. O Jihoafrické rep.už tady řeč byla.Přestaňte už konečně kecat,a začněte pracovat.Složitost života je dána úžasným množstvím geniálních jednoduchostí.Ivan
01. 08. 2007 | 10:33

Pepek napsal(a):

Pane Havle, máte dlouhodobě nejlepší blok tady na aktuálně a vaše články jsou poučné a čtivé zároveň. Těším se na vaše další články.

A ještě k romské otázce. Já osobně do toho moc nevidím. Nicméně myslím, že by bylo vhodné se nejdřív podívat, jak to dělají v jiných zemích a s jakým výsledkem. Zkrátka zaplatit a nechat zpracovat nějaké studie (nebo alespoň benchmarky). Abychom alespoň znali úspěšnost z některých možných postupů. Pak tuto studii zveřejnit na veřejném prostoru (třeba internetu). A pak teprve zkusit na základě takovéto analýzy vytvářet řešení pro ČR. Možná už takovéto studie ve světě existují, to nevím. Etnické a kulturní problémy jsou na celém světě. V naší zemi žije jen okolo 0,15 % obyvatel planety. Možná že někde jinde si s tímto problémem již poradili postupem, který lze použít i u nás.

Pokud bychom se bez nějakých zkušeností pustili do boje s diskriminací a kulturními rozdíly, mám trochu obavy aby to neskončilo jako reformy alá ODS. Tedy jednoduché řešení, nikde nevyzkoušené, které jde jen po povrchu problému bez jakékoli hlubší úvahy a znalosti problematiky. Levnější je použít něco, co funguje.
01. 08. 2007 | 10:38

oo napsal(a):

Cikáni nejsou pro práci.Jaký koliv čin přimět cikána dělat,je diskriminace.To potvrdzuje i Djamila.Musíme jim pouze cpát miliardy,jinak nás podřežou ja ko ovce.Cikoš nepracoval a pracovat nebude.To mají v genech.
01. 08. 2007 | 11:27

VDC napsal(a):

Clanek jeste delsi nez minule, ale stejne * sdelujici. Jeste chybelo na zaver jakesovske "cekaji nas tezkosti i nadeje s realnou predstavou". Ale na jednu stranu je to umeni popsat tolik "papiru" takovym cancem. Ale to koneckoncu socani umeji velmi dobre.
01. 08. 2007 | 11:30

Ládík napsal(a):

Je to furt to samé, jediným řešením je NECHAT JE PLAVAT. Předtím jim zaplatit dovolenou na Faerských ostrovech.
01. 08. 2007 | 11:33

neo napsal(a):

Ládík.

nebo jim dát všem vlastní kus země, aby si vytvořili vlastní společnost s vlastní vládou. Jeden světadíl je dokonce volnej.
01. 08. 2007 | 11:41

Rytíř napsal(a):

Já si myslím ,že smysl docentova blogu je ten, že si(nebo někdo blízký) založí Občanskou společnocť na individuální pomoc pro nepřispůsobivé občany,jak doporučuje, od státu bude brát velké peníze na činosť a pár Romům koupí,starý byt, někomu postel děckám pastelky, nějaký rohlík a někomu sežene nějakou práci. To bude stát pár korun (možná pár 100000 tisíc) ale miliony mu zůstanou, protože je nebude možné prokázat, že je neutratil na pomoc Romům.
01. 08. 2007 | 11:48

Ládík napsal(a):

neo: to by nefungovalo, není tam kde ukrást parkety na topení.
01. 08. 2007 | 11:49

Zuzana napsal(a):

Havlovský pseudohumanismus...
Do budoucna nás věřte-nevěřte čekají obrovské problémy s touto skupinou...Stručně řečeno-jako samoživitelka se třemi dětmi se spoustu let potýkám s existenčními problémy,nikdo se o mě nestaral,když jsme zůstali bez bytu,nikdo se nestaral jestli mám na cestu dětem do školy...Já si nepřeji,aby moje daně podporovaly poflakující se cikány,kteří přepadnou a oloupí moje děti,které ač samy nemají na byt a od státu ho též nedostanou,by výhledově měly trvale živit množící se terorizující skupinu obyvatel.To není demokracie,tak si ji nepředstavuji.V demokracii nemůže žádná skupina lidí žít na úkor druhé.Jestliže jsme si rovni v právech,tak i vpovinnostech a zodpovědnosti
01. 08. 2007 | 11:50

ládik napsal(a):

jo, a sami říkají, že nechtějí být soustřeďováni na jedno místo; mám tomu rozumět tak, že je lepší je rozptýlit?
01. 08. 2007 | 11:52

MeGab napsal(a):

ládík: Když se jim nelíbí na jednom místě, tak ať se rozptýlí sami. Nikdo a nic kromě jejich životžního stylu jim v tom nebrání. Jenže to by nejdřív museli začít studovat, pracovat, mít peníze (přesně v tomto pořadí), aby měli peníze na byty jako každý běžný Čech...
01. 08. 2007 | 12:09

jahoda napsal(a):

vzdor spatne reputaci, jiz se romove "tesi" ve vetsinove spolecnosti, je nejdulezitejsi negeneralizovat...
01. 08. 2007 | 12:20

Ládik napsal(a):

jenže nemůžou naskočit do toho začátku - před tím studiem musí existovat nějaká další bohulibá činnost, kterou jim nezajistili rodiče. Sami do školy nepůjdou. A nějaká misijní činnost - nevím, jak by dopadla; někde prý i misionáře sežrali, trochu víc na jihu.... nevím, nevím... a čím teplejší klima tu bude, tím bude problém větší. Práce šlechtí člověka.
01. 08. 2007 | 12:22

pracující za žebrácký groš napsal(a):

Před listopadem byl stát SOCIÁLNÍ. dnes je ASOCIÁLNÍ. Tehdy bylo povinnosti státu postarat se, aby práce BYLA pro všechny. Dnes se klade důraz na zisk soukromých firem. Stát je tu jen pro "podnikatele",kecalisty- politiky a uředníky, kterým prostý lid slouží (samo, včetně romů) jen k tomu, aby s něj sedrali kůži, a pokud možno za živá. Vy p. Havel taky patříte k těm, kteří jen žvaní a žvaní. Kdyby tomu bylo jinak, dávno zde v zemi mohlo být lépe, ne jako dnes, a je to z roka na rok HORŠÍ a HORŠÍ.
01. 08. 2007 | 12:38

Déžo napsal(a):

To Stejskal:
Všechny názory sem patří, i když s nimi nesouhlasíme. Cenzura (a mazání příspěvků je cenzurou) by měla být nepřípustná (ale bohužel média ji pořád provádí).
To Havel:
všechna řešení jste zavrhl a žádné nenabídl. A ještě jednou - řešení není složité - to jenom politici ho složité dělají, protože chtějí zdůvodnit svoje dobře placená koryta (f.e.: Dežomila a ta banda od zelených).
01. 08. 2007 | 12:46

petrof napsal(a):

Havlíčku, Havle - pustil jste se opravdu na tenký led. Zpočátku jste nás ohromil znalostmi o IQ bývalých nacistických pohlavárů a jejich teorií o rasové předurčenosti, a pak ze zbytku Vašeho textu vyplynula naprostá bezvýchodnost a bezradnost ??!! Nám ovšem o žádnou rasovou segregaci nejde. Proč tady mohli žít v 60-tých letech naprosto bezproblémově Řekové, dnes relativně Vietnamci a další ?? Jen cikáni se nemohou začlenit. A Vy jim to ještě usnadňujete např. pozitivní diskrimací apod. Prostě dávky snížit na minimum, jen na přežití a ti co nemaj práci - každé ráno hlásit v 6,00 hod. na náměstí, naložit na auto a odjezd za prací. A to by přibývalo dálnic, čistily se řeky, vybíralo kamení z poli atd. Prostě pracovní tábory a ono by je to flákání přešlo. Prostě Vaše idea o sociálním státu nefunguje. Svět bude vždy a všude rozdělen na bohaté a chudé a je na každém, kam se začlení !!!
01. 08. 2007 | 12:52

MeGab napsal(a):

Ládík: To, že nemůžou naskočit do toho začátku, je JEN(!) JEJICH(!) problém. Jeho podstata jim nedojde, dokud se s nimi bude jednat tak jako dosud v rukavičkách.
01. 08. 2007 | 12:53

neo napsal(a):

pracující za žebrácký groš:

co Vám brání najít si lepší práci, za lepší groš? před listopadem Vám řekli kde budete pracovat a za kolik a skoro všechno bylo dražší a navíc nedostupné. Dnes máte možnost výběru kde chcete pracovat a za kolik a ceny jsou nižší, protože máme tržní hospodářství.
01. 08. 2007 | 12:53

Ládik napsal(a):

žebrácký groš je pro každého jinak velký, každý právník žije za žebrácký groš..
01. 08. 2007 | 12:58

milan napsal(a):

Velevážený pane Havel, prosím, už dále o sobě netvrďte, že jste ekonom. Jako ekonom musíte vědět, že může existovat bez problémů pouze ta společnost, kde nebochází k tak bezbřehému mrhání prostředků, které seberete těm pracovitějším. čím větší přerozdělování, tím více peněz se ztratí a vo-vo-vo to de, že?Lenin je zřejmě váš guru.
Myslím si, že u nás není rasismus, ale naopak veliká tolerance k lidem jiného vyznání či barvy pleti. co však vadí, je státní zneužívání daní. lhostejno zda jde o korupci či neúměrné sociální dávky. a ve zlepšení tohoto vaši socani nehnuli ani prstem za celých 8 let - apíše naopak.
a když se vrátím k těm cigánům - projděte se někdy kolem jejich obydlí. když ne po kolena tak po kotníky určitě se budete brodit špínou a odpadkama a popelnice jsou prázdné. plaťte jim za to, že uklízí alespoň po sobě.
01. 08. 2007 | 13:15

petrof napsal(a):

to neo: pokud tvá čísla jsou jen z 50% pravdivá, tak je to otřesné a horší, než jsme všichni mysleli !!! Pak nezbývá nic jiného, než okamžitá sterilizace, hned po narození a počkat si ca. 120 let !!! Naši pra-pravnuci se pak již jen budou ptát, kdože to byli ti Rómové......
01. 08. 2007 | 13:22

MeGab napsal(a):

petrof: Jeho informace bohužel nepochází z oficiálního zdroje (ty tyto informace neposkytují). Jsou pravděpodobně z jedné diskuse na neonacionalistických webových stránek http://cz.altermedia.cz, kde je uveden zdroj http://radekhulan.cz/item/r... I když jsem přesvědčen, že mezi Cikány je daleko větší procento nezákonně se chovajících jedinců než mezi Čechy, bral bych ty údaje s opravdu hodně velkou rezervou...
01. 08. 2007 | 13:31

Josef napsal(a):

Pro upřesnění, např. na http://www.volkmar-weiss.de...

IQ of Nazi leaders, cited from: Gilbert, G. M.: Nuremberg Diary. New York: Signet Book 1947, p. 34; Wechsler-Bellevue IQ: Hjalmar Schacht IQ 143, Arthur Seyss-Inquart IQ 141, Hermann Göring IQ 138, Karl Dönitz IQ 138, Franz von Papen IQ 134, Erich Räder IQ 134, Dr. Hans Frank IQ 130, Hans Fritsche IQ 130, Baldur von Schirach IQ 130, Joachim von Ribbentropp IQ 129, Wilhelm Keitel IQ 129, Albert Speer IQ 128, Alfred Jodl IQ 127, Alfred Rosenberg IQ 127, Constantin von Neurath IQ 125, Walter Funk IQ 124, Wilhelm Frick IQ 124, Rudolf Hess IQ 120, Fritz Sauckel IQ 118, Ernst Kaltenbrunner IQ 113, Julius Streicher IQ 106 -
01. 08. 2007 | 13:39

petrof napsal(a):

to Josef: díky Pepo za připomenutí. Byli to celkem inteligentní chlapíci. Jen škoda, že ten jejich vůdce byl magor !! Kdyby se necpal do Ruska a spokojil se s podmaněnou Evropou, tak bychom dnes nemuseli řešit problém s Rómy.
Byla by tady jedna velkoněmecká říše a nám by bylo fajn !!
01. 08. 2007 | 13:59

stejskal napsal(a):

Dobrý den všem,

přestože s řadou názorů, které zde zazněly, nesouhlasím, děkuji naprosté většině diskutujících za korektně vedenou debatu. Myslím, že je velice prospěšné zjistit, co si kdo (a jak mnoho lidí) o problému spolužití a jeho řešení myslí.

Ještě jednou díky za inspirativní diskusi.

Libor Stejskal, editor blogů

P.S. Pane Siki, smazal jsem Váš text, neboť byl napsán verzálami, což je v rozporu s Kodexem diskutujících. S jeho obsahem jinak nemám nejmenší problém, je zcela legitimní.
01. 08. 2007 | 14:21

Krabice napsal(a):

Možná by se Cikánům zalíbil návrat do pravlasti. Každému dát na cestu 100 000,- odstupného a peníze za prodaný majetek. Indové jsou vynikající počítačoví programátoři, třebas by se tam Cikáni chytli.
01. 08. 2007 | 14:24

stejskal napsal(a):

No, tak pan petrof to s se svým obdivem k nacismu a Třetí říši (před pčedcházející úvahou o sterilizaci jsem se ještě se sebezepřením pokusil zavřít oči) poněkud pokazil.

Další podobné texty, pane petrofe, mažu. Nacismus se na těchto stránkách vychvalovat nebude. Děkuji za pochopení.

Libor Stejskal, editor blogů
01. 08. 2007 | 14:32

neo napsal(a):

petrof:

Tak to pozor. Kdyby se ten "magor" spokojil z Evropou, nebyl bys tu pravděpodobně ani ty. Náckové jsou úplně stejná verbež rasistická....

Můj negativní postoj k cikánům nevyplývá z jejich barvy kůže, ale z jejich chování.
01. 08. 2007 | 14:37

petrof napsal(a):

to stejskal : mohu Vám říct, že to nebyl můj obdiv k nacismu, ale jen smutné postesknutí nad tím, kdyby aplespoň část naší politické garnitury měla takové IQ. A to ostatní jsou již jen historická fakta, které Vám každý rozumný potvrdí. Díky !
01. 08. 2007 | 14:42

stejskal napsal(a):

Pane petrofe,

nemám za to, že toto je historický fakt: "Byla by tady jedna velkoněmecká říše a nám by bylo fajn !!" a silně pochybuji o tom, že budu jediný "nerozumný," kdo se vůči tomu ohradí.

Jinak Vy víte, jaké IQ mají naši politici? Já tedy ne. Řada z nich je podle mne velmi inteligentní. Nicméně samotná inteligence není zárukou prakticky ničeho. Čehož důkazem jsou právě např. nacističtí pohlaváři (čímž je v žádném případě nechci srovnávat s našimi politiky).

Libor Stejskal
01. 08. 2007 | 14:56

stejskal napsal(a):

Pane neo,

působíte na mne v různých diskusích jako inteligentní člověk (kdyby tomu tak nebylo, nezkoušel bych si tímto textem naběhnout na uražené nepochopení a možná i nadávky).

Píšete: "Můj negativní postoj k cikánům nevyplývá z jejich barvy kůže, ale z jejich chování."

Celá řada lidí by se s Vaším názorem zřejmě ztotožnila, většina z nich by ale asi zároveň prohlásila, že se necítí rasisty (proti barvě kůže přece nic nemají).

Problém ovšem není, že Vám (jim) nevadí barva pleti, ale že přisuzujete určitému etniku en bloc jisté vlastnosti, které odmítáte a považujete za nepřípustné. A příslušnost k tomu etniku poznáváte právě a jenom podle barvy kůže.

Statistiky ale ukazují, že tyto odsouzeníhodné vlastnosti ani zdaleka nemají všichni Romové (a osobní zkušenosti řady z nás to mohou potvrdit - viz výše). A dokonce že tyto postoje a vlastnosti najdete i mezi "bílými". Akorát je vykazuje percentuálně daleko méně z nás. Pokud byste tedy soudil jen podle vztahu k práci, musel byste všechny "nemakačenky" bez ohledu pleti nazývat Cikány (což by byl ovšem také rasismus, protože tohle označení se používá právě pro jedno konkrétní etnikum).

Co chci říct (a neberte to prosím osobně): napsat "Romové mi vadí kvůli svému postoji k práci" je v podstatě úplně stejně rasistické, jako říci Romové mi vadí kvůli své černé hubě. Je to stejná nepřípustná paušalizace.

Mne vadí, jak velká část Romů parazituje na většinové společnosti. A znovu říkám: snažím se pochopit, proč tomu tak je, popř. hledat řešení (už jsem zde nějaká navrhoval, přestože se necítím být podobně jako pan Havel odborníkem na tyto věci).

Jedna z mála věcí, kterou mohu pro blaho nás všech udělat, je alespoň neházet všechny do jednoho pytle. A těm slušným tak dát šanci.

Mějte se fajn a děkujte bohu či čemukoliv, v co věříte, že jste se nenarodil jako Cikán. Nebyla by to Vaše vina, ale následky byste si nesl do smrti.

Libor Stejskal
01. 08. 2007 | 15:18

neo napsal(a):

Pane Stejskale,
Děkuji za Vaší reakci na úrovni (nejste jako např.Pan Kostlán:))

Ale i tak nemohu souhlasit, protože já rozhodně neházím všechny cikány do jednoho pytle (viz.výše o cikánech pracujících,vzdělaných,těch co podnikaj). Navíc, můj postoj není negativní jen k nepracujícím (parazitujícím) cikánům, ale ke všem parazitujícím občanům. Problém je, že statistika mluví celkem jasně a 80% ne-li víc cikánů se do této skupiny řadí. Takže lze s klidem říci, že je jich většina. Mimochodem, cikáni (většina) nemají negativní postoj jen k práci, ale vlastně ke všemu a ještě obviňují z rasismu, pokud není po jejich.
01. 08. 2007 | 16:19

Zetka napsal(a):

Na všechno řešení s otázkou Rómů je pozdě. Teď už budeme jenom čekat co s tím udělají naši zákonodárci a to na vrub nerómů.Rómové dostali do rukou takové výhody, že je ani nenapadne, aby pracovali a jen se budou všemi možnými triky dovolávat výhod. Víte všichni jaký strach mají z Rómů v Kanadě? Proto zavedli víza pro všechny občany naší republiky.Rómové se nikdy nepředělají není to v jejich mentalitě. Chtějí se mít dobře na úkor ostatních. Člověk už je s tím celým etnikem otrávený, a znechucený.
01. 08. 2007 | 17:21

Nori napsal(a):

Pane Stejskale,

lidé jako vy jsou neštěstím západních národů. Myslíte to dobře (a to nejspíš dokonce se všemi, což už je docela originální), máte ze své "dobroty" dobrý pocit a cítíte pak jen zdánlivě spravedlivý hněv vůči těm, kteří nesdílejí vaši vizi všelidského porozumění a harmonie. Život ovšem není pohádka a svět nikdy nebude rájem. Zatímco náš národ by potřeboval uvolnit nejednu kouli na noze, neboť stárne a vymírá, vy vidíte prioritu v tom, aby náhodou nebylo "ukřivděno", byť jen slovem, parazitům, kteří si vesele hodují v našem kožichu. Vím, že pro lidi jako jste vy, národ mnoho naznamená. Nejspíš se cítíte jako světoobčan a lidi posuzujete výhradně jako jednotlivce. Zní to hezky (která utopická vize tak nezní?), ale lidé s takovým viděním světa obvykle pouze rozloží vlastní společenství, která následně podlehnou společenstvím cizím, vitálnějším, silnějším, jednotnějším, semknutějším, která často sice nedosahují kulturní úrovně těch prvních, ale neztratila to nejdůležitější, životní sílu plynoucí z víry v budoucnost v jednotě, která se nejčastěji váže na společně prožitou historii, pokrevní příbuznost, společný jazyk a náboženství. Rodina, národ, ani náboženství se už v naší společnosti netěší přílišné úctě. Etnické a kulturní míšení rozmělní jednou naši soudržnost úplně, ale až se tak stane, nebu zde ráj, ale spíše přechodný chaos, stav určité formy občanské války, z níž opět vzejde pouze jiná dominantní společnost, kterou čeká fáze růstu, stagnace, úpadku a zániku. Ano, změna je život. Ale nevím, proč se na smrt naší společnosti někteří tak těší. Můžete obelhávat ostatní či dokonce sám sebe, ale dějiny neobalamutíte. A ty k lidem jako vy nebudou jednou příliš shovívavé. Jak by se dnes dívali lidé na "elitu" dávného národa, která by žila podle tak nezvyklých (tehdy prý vznešených) ideí, až by přivedla svoji společnost k zániku? Kdo všechno podle vás může být Čechem, aby tento pojem ještě něco znamenal? Vymezovat se proti cizím je v lidské přirozenosti stejně zakořeněné, jako potřeba sounaležitosti s vlastními. Dějiny mohou nahradit národní společenství jinými, v krutých porodních bolestech se třeba zrodí nový světový řád, ale všelidské jednoty se nedočkáme. Rasismus má být spojen jen s čímsi iracionálním, rozebírání skutečných rozdílů tedy nemůže být rasismem. A rozdíly zkrátka rozdělují. Osobně se domnívám, že nejen společenstva s velmi nízkým potenciálem, ale především ta s potenciálem nadprůměrným, budou představovat největší hrozbu naší holé existenci. Jestli mě může něco alespoň mírně uklidňovat, tak je to fakt, že nestojíme přímo v první linii a budeme tak moci (možná ještě včas) zpozorovat zánik jiných. Žádné společenství není věčné, ale proč zrovna naše generace má být tou, která selhala?
01. 08. 2007 | 18:27

stejskal napsal(a):

Dobrý den, pane Nori,

musím říct, že mne Váš text velice zaujal. Máte podle mého velmi promyšlený a konzistentní názor a já jsem dalek toho, abych se odvážil říct, že se mýlíte a pravdu mám já.

Myslím si, že to dokáže rozsoudit teprve budoucnost. I když nám z toho už žádný pocit zadostiučinění nebude přán, i kdybychom o to stáli.

Budete se asi divit, ale já vůbec nevěřím ve všelidskou jednotu. Nemyslím si ani, že svět by měl stát na nějakých přehnaných ideálech.

Jediné, co podle mne může fungovat, je systém, který přinese co nejvíce lidem co nejvíce užitku (budou z něj mít prospěch, chcete-li).

Tato ryze pragmatická úvaha mne vede k tomu, že v současném globalizovaném světě (a globalizovaný prostě je, ať chceme či nikoliv) se už lidé k naplnění tohoto cíle nespojují jen na základě hlasu krve či společného jazyka. Řadu z nich spojují z velké časti spíše společné hodnoty a v neposlední řadě i ekonomické zájmy.

Musím přiznat, že si často rozumím lépe se svými přáteli z celého světa než z lidmi ze sousedství. Mám s nimi daleko více společného než třeba s těmi, kteří zpravidla nevytáhli paty ze sobě známého a efemérní jistotu dodávajícího prostředí a jen nadávají na vše kolem.

Pojem národ, jak jej chápali obrozenci a jak se s ním nakládalo například při vzniku čs. republiky, pro mne opravdu mnoho neznamená (přesto mám velmi rád tuto zemi, její kulturu, svůj mateřský jazyk, těším se z toho, když nějaký můj krajan něčeho významného dosáhne). Pokud by někdo tuto zemi napadl, zřejmě bych ji šel i bránit (ještě před osmnácti lety bych se byl býval raději viděl na straně agresora).

Z mého pohledu nemá problém tento národ (vymírání atd), ale tato společnost. Jedním z těch problémů (a ten problém je velký) je spolužití různých etnik. A prestože jich byla většina na našem území vyvražděna a zbytek naši předkové vyhnali, problém společnosti se nevyřešil.

A moje ryze pragmatická úvaha opět zní: je třeba něco udělat, abychom zbytečně nevyhazovali peníze, aby se lidem nevyplácelo parazitovat a abychom se tu třeba časem nezačali střílet.

A protože jsem odpůrce koncentračních táborů, etnických čistek, sterilizací i nucených exodů, snažím se přemýšlet o nějakém jiném řešení. A to řešení zní, že se všichni i za cenu různých obětí budeme spolu učit žít. Je to prostě výhodnější (i ekonomicky) než se nenávidět a možná časem i zabíjet. Snažím se prostě dělat to, co je výhodné. Ne ideální. I takové postupy se ve Vámi zmiňované historii lidstva najdou.

A ještě jedna věc: mne samotného vůbec netěší odklon od tradičních rodinných hodnot a náboženství. Myslím si, že každý člověk potřebuje někam patřit a něčemu věřit. Jen si nemyslím, že předmětem té víry a pocitu sounáležitosti musí být nutně národ či lidé, kteří shodou okolností mluví stejným jazykem jako já.

Doufám, že i já jsem Vám poskytl nějakou látku k přemýšlení, tak jako jste ji poskytl Vy mne.

Libor Stejskal
02. 08. 2007 | 02:19

skeptický napsal(a):

Je pozoruhodné,že národy a státy ohánějící se rasismem mají skrytou ideologii založenou právě na něm.
Náboženství,vlastenectví,mravní hodnoty, národní hrdost a sounáležitost ,byly během několika staletí vykořeněny,díky jedincům v naší společnosti,kteří jsou ochotni zaprodat svůj národ za třicet stříbrných.
Jsme slabí a nejednotní.
Operace Babylon,která probíhá v celé Evropě má svůj cíl,výsledek si ti mladší najdou v Bibli.U nás je to zjednodušené,nemusíme dovážet,stačí pěstovat.
Bohužel se asi musíme smířit s tím,že budeme muset udělat místo schopnějším,na kolonizaci jsme zralí.
02. 08. 2007 | 03:43

Acidburn napsal(a):

Jen doplním jeden statistický údaj, zjištěný při onom velkém "Sčítání lidí, domů a bytů." z roku 2001.

50 % Romů NIKDY nepracovalo.

Dovedete si to představit? Schválně, zkuste si to, nepracujte třeba půl roku, jak asi dopadnete, pokud jste NeRom, je docela jasné i bez věštecké koule.
A k onomu sčítání ještě podotknu jednu věc - dle jeho výsledku je počet Romů u nás poměrně malý, jak to? Jednoduše, jako Romové totiž byli vyhodnoceni všichni ti, kteří uvedli, že mají Romskou národnost".

Jinak těm údajům, popsaným výše, co se týká romských prvorodiček - ano, jejich věk je opravdu strašně nízký a není ani tak neobvyklé, když je romka u porodu pod vlivem drog, nebo jí je třeba pouhých 14 - 16 let. Známí holt pracují v porodnici.

Nesouhlasím s "konečným řešením" á la Hitler, jsem přesvědčen, že stačí mít stejné zákony pro všechny.
02. 08. 2007 | 04:42

skeptický napsal(a):

Ze všech výšezmiňovaných návrhů by asi nejschůdnější opravdu bylo snížení porodnosti
cestou přídavků na první dvě děti pouze.
Sterilizace nepřichází v úvahu,zakazování a nucené potraty také ne,nejsme v Číně.Rovněž ,když už je stěhování v rámci EU ze Slovenska povoleno,žádné sociální dávky pro přistěhovalce,ani občanství a dětské přídavky pro jejich děti,i když se narodí tady.Jinak jich je na Slovensku tak půl milionu,a v Bulharsku a Rumunsku nepočítaně.Až se doslechnou,že se tu rozdávají peníze,tak nám pomoz Pámbu.
02. 08. 2007 | 05:13

MeGab napsal(a):

stejskal: Ještě ve 40. letech 20. století tu byly národnostní třenice s Němci a Cikány. Dnes už jenom s Cikány. Pročpak to? Protože jsme Němce vystěhovali a ten malý zbytek, který tu z různých důvodů zůstal, se zcela asimiloval. Od té doby zde nemáme s Němci národnostní třenice.
Stejně tak od vzniku státu Izrael a odchody většiny evropských Židů do něj ustaly v Evropě pogromy.
Po genocidě Arménů v Turecku a odchodu zbytku tohoto národa do Arménie nejsou v Turecku národnostní třenice s Armény.
Pokud by Srbové odsunuli Albánce z Kosova do Albánie, opět by na mapě Evropy ubyl jeden národnostní konflikt. Pokud vznikne samostatný stát Kosovo (jakkoli s tím nesouhlasím), opět v Evropě ubude jeden národnostní konflikt.
Není tedy pravda, že odseparováním národů se nevyřeší společenský problém soužití různých kultur.
A na závěr PS.: Neschvaluji genocidy ani odsuny, jen popisuji historické události.
02. 08. 2007 | 07:25

hawk. napsal(a):

To neo: :-))
02. 08. 2007 | 09:38

stejskal napsal(a):

Dobrý den pane hawku a pane neo,

smazal jsem oba Vaše příspěvky, neboť byly jednoznačně rasistické.

Co z toho vyplývá:

Panu hawkovi jsem zabanoval IP adresu, neboť to není zdaleka poprvé, co se těchto výroků navzdory mému varování dopustil. Pokud bude mít pan hawk dojem, že se napříště podobných přístupů dokáže v diskusi vyvarovat (ten poslední výrok zněl: Cikáni jsou naprosto nenapravitelná sebranka), může se na mne obrátit mejlem a já zvážím, zda mu přístup obnovím.

Pane neo, řekněte mi prosím: opravdu Vám přijde Vámi publikovaný "vtip" vkusný a korektní, nebo jen zkoušíte moji trpělivost? Při své inteligenci si přece dokážete představit svoji reakci v případě, že byste něco podobného slyšel z úst Roma či třeba černocha na adresu nás, morálně vyspělých Čechů. To je opravdu tak těžké pochopit, proč jsou takovéto hrátky odporné a nebezpečné?

Libor Stejskal, editor blogů
02. 08. 2007 | 10:57

neo napsal(a):

Dobrý den pane Stejskale,

Teď jste mě opravdu dostal:)

Pravidla na blogu jsem neporušil, protože na vtipech o Romské menšině není nic rasistického a tento konkrétně vůbec. Kupte si třeba Srandokaps nebo Trnky Brnky...jsou plné vtipů o Vietnamcích Valaších, Cikánech,Somálcích, policajtech, politicích, blondýnkách......

pokud budem cenzurovat i anekdoty, věřte, že to daleko nedotáhnem. Hezký den a jsem s pozdravem

neo
02. 08. 2007 | 11:10

jirka napsal(a):

Pokud sem někdo chce psát, žádný ban nepomůže, protože existují anonymizéry. Já nevím... vtipy.. no některé třeba nejsou nejvkusnější... za komančů byla soutěž o "Zlatou mříž MV". To snad není potřeba.
02. 08. 2007 | 12:41

neo napsal(a):

víte proč se dělaj Fidorky taky z bílé čokolády? Aby si cikáni neukousli prsty....:))

pane Stejskale, je to rasistický vtip?
02. 08. 2007 | 13:16

stejskal napsal(a):

Ne, pane neo, tento vtip za rasistický nepovažuji (i když vtipný mi také nepřijde).

Nicméně anekdotu implikující, že určitému etniku je vlastní incestní chování, ano. A jako taková porušuje Trestní zákoník paragraf 198a o Hanobení rasy, národa a přesvědčení. Už jsem ho tu citoval nesčíselněkrát.

Tím tuto debatu ze své strany končím. Dál budu diskusi moderovat tak jako dosud.

Mějte se fajn.

Libor Stejskal, editor blogů
02. 08. 2007 | 14:05

skeptický napsal(a):

Pravda + láska < lež + nenávist + I.Q.
02. 08. 2007 | 14:16

kadecka napsal(a):

to neo: velmi vtipne. to mu se v roce 2007 muzou zasmat jenom tupi, omezeni cesti vidlaci. muhehe
02. 08. 2007 | 14:19

Hurá napsal(a):

Dnešní politika, obecně, vytvořila informační embargo na údaje týkajících se cikánů. Neexistuje vědecký výzkum tohoto etnika a byly zrušeny nejrůznější pro výzkum potřebné statistiky. Nicméně, téměř ilegálně, výzkum ve světě pokračuje. Jen velmi stručně uvedu některé jeho výstupy:
Cikáni patří spíše k negroidní rase než k europoidní.Inteligenční testy ukazují jejich výrazně nižší IQ.
a) děti z dětského domova ve věku 12 - 15 let; C=75 bodů, Ne=C 85,
b)mladiství delikventi; C=71,Ne-C=92,
c)dětské domovy-děti 10-13 let; C=73, Ne-C=88, atd, atd.
d) průměrný rozdíl u těchto dětí jest cca 18 bodů.Rozdíl se dále se stoupajícím věkev zvětšuje.
e)Úhrnem: Dětské domovy - C=72,8 bodů,
Ne-C=84,8 bodů.
Dokud se budeme snažit řešit C problematiku pomocí dohadů a nepodložených úvah a přání, na místo tvrdých dat, tak nepomůžeme jim ani sobě.
Víc se mně psát nechce, stejně to politiky nezajímá.
03. 08. 2007 | 03:40

Terry napsal(a):

Zkusím popsat, jak se vyvíjel cikánský problém pohledem a zkušenostmi šedesátiletého člověka, tj. zhruba od konce 50. let do současnosti.
Předesílám, že jsem vždy používal a budu používat označení Cikán, aniž bych v tom viděl rasistický poddtext (ostatně označení "Rom" je v současnosti už více zprofanované než původně používaný výraz Cikán, viz kdysi v TV reportáži konstatování starého Cikána: "Ja nesu Rom, ja su cigan, Romove sou ti, co tady dělaji bordel.").
V 50. letech "díky" postojům komunistů k "nepracujícím" byli Cikáni (kterých tady po válce zase tolik nebylo) nuceni k respektování základních civilizačních a kulturních standardů společnosti: pracovní povinnost, povinná školní docházka... V blízkosti mého bydliště žily dvě cikánské rodiny a nebyl s nimi žádný problém; byly sice chudší, ale slušní. Nicméně už v 60. letech se vytvářela místa s hustším osídlením Cikány (v Brně Francouzská ulice, Cejl, Dornych), a neslo to sebou první negativní projevy: nižší hygiena a nezájem o čistotu bydlení a okolí, zvýšená "hlučnost" komunity, dětské "party"..., nicméně se státnímu represívnímu aparátu ještě pořád dařilo držet rozumnou mez.
Nutno podotknout, že vývoj začleňování Cikánů do společnosti v českých zemích se (už historicky) lišil od stavu na Slovensku.
Zásadní problémy s Cikány nastaly po roce 1970, kdy Husákův režim "řešil" právě tyto velké problémy s Cikány zejména na východním Slovensku (cikánské kolonie na horší úrovni středověku co do hygienických a civilizačních návyků) jejich "exportem" = ZAČLENĚNÍM do společnosti slovenské (viz košické sídliště Luník, aktuální stav http://www.blisty.cz/art/10...), ale i jejich nucením "přesídlením" do českých zemí, zejména na severní Moravu a do severních Čech (viz sídliště Chánov). Pořád sice platila povinnost pracovat, pořád platila povinná školní docházka, ale vzhledem k tomu, že tisíce importovaných Cikánů neměly potřebné jazykové schopnosti, povětšině nulové vzdělání a přivezli si sebou i svoje "návyky", komunistický režim spolu se zahájením masívní sociální podpory už začal "tolerovat" ničení bytů, neplacení nájemného, vodného.., na svoje náklady začal řešit problém s odpadky, věznice se začaly plnit Cikány a hlavně cikánskou mládeží.
Po sametové revoluci, která snad nejvíce "sametová" byla právě pro cikánskou komunitu, zanikla povinnost pracovat a nikdo nesledoval, z čeho kdo bude žít. Navíc pseudohumanistický přístup prezidenta Havla k Cikánům vedl k současným důsledkům, kdy se státní orgány (úřady, policie) "bojí" cikánské minority natolik, že slepě přezírají narůstající problém: vyrůstají zde cikánské generace, které jsou státem "ujištěny", že mají JEN PRÁVO vše od státu "nárokovat", ale stát vůči nim nebude uplatňovat žádné povinnosti. A pokud se taková snaha občas vyskytne, je okamžitě zahrnuta do kategorie "rasistický přístup".

Nedávná tragedie v Kladně, kdy se na skupinu cikánských zlodějů zřítila hala jen dokumentovala přístup státu: přesto, že tatáž skupina byla den předtím policií "vyvedena" z tohoto prostoru (ale policie "neřešila" nezákonný vstup na soukromý pozemek za účelem krádeže případně žhářství), ale proč by něco repsektovali? A po zřícení označili pozůstalí za viníka tragedie majitele haly, protože ji nedostatečně hlídal!! Zde je vidět diametrální rozdílnost myšlení (nebo to je pouze drzost?): vinen není cikánský zloděj, vinen je okradený, protože se okrást nechal. A stát to mlčky toleruje. A mladý Cikán, bratr zemřelého, ověšený zlatem, si stěžoval, jak "nemůžou sehnat práci". Tagikomické, ale bohužel pravdivě vyjadřující realitu.

Demokratický stát může fungovat jen tehdy, kdy si dovede ochránit (i cestou represí!!!) pricipy (ekonomické, kulturní, civilizační) svého fungování. Každá projevená slabost státu vede ke škodám a je-li slabost či neschopnost státu problémy řešit dlouhodobá, vede k jeho zániku.
03. 08. 2007 | 08:51

jaryn napsal(a):

To Terry:
Jasné, výstižné, srozumitelné. Plný souhlas.
03. 08. 2007 | 13:59

stejskal napsal(a):

Dobrý den, pane Hurá,

problematiku rasové podmíněnosti IQ jsem tu již řešil s panem Cartem. Také tvrdil, že Romové jsou vybaveni nižší inteligencí.

Stejně jako Vy se ale nezabýval otázkou, zda-li se jedná o genetickou dispozici či hendikep způsobený sociální deprivací většiny z nich.

Já tvrdím, že se jedná o to druhé. A tudíž se se s tím dá něco dělat. Že to jde, je vidět v USA, kde od 60. let neustále posilují všechny vrstvy od té střední výše v případě afroameričanů či amerických černochů, chcete-li.

Můžete mi výše uvedené nějak vyvrátit? Víte, co znamená v případě IQ tzv. Flynnův efekt?

Děkuji za odpovědi.

Libor Stejkal
03. 08. 2007 | 15:26

stejskal napsal(a):

Dobrý den, pane Terry,

Váš exkurs mi přijde naprosto přesný a výstižný (snad bych oponoval jen výhradám vůči postupu pana prezidenta Havla; myslím, že to byla spíše vcelku pochopitelná, i když z dnešního pohledu možná naivní reakce na latentní rasismus, který produkoval komunistický režim).

Naprosto souhlasím, že při porušování zákonnosti nesmí stát projevit slabost vůči nikomu. Je to jedna z několika podmínek toho, aby se současná neutěšená situace ve spolužití "bílé" vetšiny a romské menšiny mohla zlepšit.

Děkuji za Váš názor.

Libor Stejskal
03. 08. 2007 | 15:35

skeptický napsal(a):

Napadla mne poťouchlá otázka : Proč si je národy a státy,které jsou tak expertní se svými "vědami",jako sociologie a psychologie,a říkají nám,že děláme všechno špatně,nemají o tyto lidi zájem.Páně Kostlánova teorie,že to chce ještě tři generace cukru se mi také při současné porodnosti nezdá.

Nemohu si pomoci,ale mám dojem,že tyhle různé skupiny poradců a ochránců nás záměrně dostávají do větší a větší šlamastiky.Jsou země,kterým rasismus hrozně vadí,ale s menšinami zacházejí z pozice síly.
03. 08. 2007 | 16:56

skeptický napsal(a):

P.S.Ta druhá věta se mi moc nepovedla,klid,není to I.Q.test.
03. 08. 2007 | 17:05

jirka napsal(a):

A Kanada nám zavedla víza. A Británie přiměla ČSA k selekci. Písmeno G - asi od slova génius :-)))))))
03. 08. 2007 | 17:44

Cart napsal(a):

Stejskale, s tou úspěšnou integrací černochů raději už znova nezačínejte, nechcete-li se tu zesměšnit.
03. 08. 2007 | 19:44

Cart napsal(a):

Mimochodem, IQ studie, které u Cikánů ukazují výsledky kolem 80 bodů, byly provedeny na dětech. Data dospělých ze Srbska ale ukazují jen 70 bodů a český průměr všech studií je tuším 76 bodů. Bylo by zajímavé zjistit, zda IQ Cikánů s věkem klesá - podobně jako je tomu u amerických černochů. Ti mají jako děti IQ přes 90 bodů, ale poté se vývoj jejich mozku zastavuje, jejich mentální věk "zamrzá" a v dospělosti tudíž skórují na svých chronicky známých 85 bodech.

IQ 70 odpovídá zhruba mentální úrovni 10-11-letých dětí, naši Cikáni by potom byli zhruba na úrovni 12-letých dětí. Pokud na ně budeme nahlížet jako na nezodpovědné, nedisciplinované děti, řadu problémů s tímto etnikem budeme chápat daleko snadněji. Mimo jiné to, že bez naši pomoci nejsou schopni udržet jakoukoli formu civilizovaného života.
03. 08. 2007 | 19:54

Cart napsal(a):

Tady se koukněte, jak školní programy a affirmativní akce "pomohly" americkým černochům a Hispáncům při studiu ve škole:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wik...
Jisté výsledky byly patrné do konce 80. let, ale poté se růst zastavil a od té doby stagnuje. Enviromentální faktory byly smazány a tyto akce narazily na nepřekročitelné genetické bariéry. Všimněte si, že rozdíly v testech SAT jsou téměř vždy nejmenší u věkové kategorie 9 let a s věkem se zvyšují.

Studie panů Dickense a Flynna z roku 2006, která se snažila dokázat, že se IQ rozdíly mezi bělochy a černochy v USA snižují, byla loni prázdnou mediální bublinou, založenou na selektivním výběru provedených IQ testů.
03. 08. 2007 | 20:19

jirka napsal(a):

Carte, je to dost tristní. I tak je ovšem každý člověk jedinec, o němž průměr dopředu nic nevypovídá. Neznám přesně pravděpodobnostní rozdělení u IQ - nicméně bude smutným faktem, že při průměru 85 bude mít nad 100 od oka jen každý asi tak desátý jedinec :-(
Srovnávání s dětmi.. je trošku složité, u dětí se IQ počítá jako 100*mentální věk/skutečný věk, na ten mentální věk jsou nějaké testovací úlohy...
Roli asi sehrála výměna genů v příliš malé skupině, ovlivněné negativním výběrem jedinců již z pravlasti, je mezi nimi i hodně incestů (než mě zas někdo seřve, tak to není dáno etnikem, ale nízkým sociálním statutem - jenže dopad je furt stejný)
03. 08. 2007 | 20:23

Pepa Řepa napsal(a):

Dobrý den
zaujala mě výměna názorů mezi pány Norim a Stejskalem.
Nori to popsal velice přesně, asi bych to tak nedokázal.Dovolil bych si zdůraznit jeden aspekt.
Nezanedbatelnou roli náboženství.Nejsem Jehovista, abych stál na rohu se Strážní věží v ruce a otravoval lidi.Považuju víru za intimní věc a vím, že žiju v Čechách, tudíž jsem zřejmě černoprdelník a je mi jasné, že se mi většina vysměje.

Když žijete delší čas v muslimské civilizaci, začnete si uvědomovat, jaké pozitivní hodnoty přineslo křesťanství naší západní civilizaci.Víc si uvědomujete svoji identitu, kdo jsem a odkud jsme přišli.A byl bych nerad, aby ta třetí část z názvu Gauguinova obrazu...kam jdeme - bylo: Do pr...e.

Necítím se ani světoobčanem ani Evropanem. Jsem Čech i kdyby DNA ukázalo, že se prapraprabába spustila s Eskymákem.
A církev? Holt si musíte vybírat správné lidi.Pro mě to byl nejdřív pan Reinsberg od Týna, pak Tomáš Halík nebo Vojta Eliáš od Ludmily. A Sváťa Karásek. Na jeho písničkách děti vyrostly i když se jim dneska smějou.

Jak zpívá Suchý:Nedivte se prosím vás, v takový krásný společnosti...
Že tam je i spousta pitomců? To víte že jo! Ale kde není?
03. 08. 2007 | 20:40

Pepa Řepa napsal(a):

Dobrý den pane Stejskale
čtu ještě jednou váš příspěvek z 02.08.Tentokrát s ním absolutně souhlasím.

Ani já se nekamarádím s lidma na základě hlasu krve nebo národní příslušnosti. Myšlenka panslovanismu šla mimo mě. Nechápal jsem, proč by mně měl být bližší Rusák /pokud by to nebyl Dostojevskij nebo Tolstoj/ než Elvis Presley.
V Africe jsem měl asistenta dvoumetrovýho Svahilce,černýho jak bota, muslima.Dodnes na něj vzpomínám.Asi ho podříz Idi Amin.

Jenom dvě poznámky:
1.Jakkoli dobře míněná snaha o řešení romského problému bude neúčinná, pokud nezměníte populační křivku. A tu těžko změníte na základě etnického principu.
To je ta Catch XXII Tam šlo o nějaký počet náletů, už přesně nevím.

2.Každá další migrace,zvláště z muslimského světa, pokud se nejedná o persekuovaného jedince, je maximálně riziková a měla by se omezit.

Nevím jestli znáte Robina Heřmana, buddhistu žijícího chvíli v Kjótu, chvíli v Praze.Mít ho za souseda by byla pro mě čest.Ale Pištu Lakatoše z Chánova, s dvaceti sourozenci nebo Chálima vyškoleného imámem z madrassy, bych asi za souseda skutečně nechtěl.
Vy píšete, že byste šel do projektu společného bydlení.Obdivuji vás, a to bez ironie.Jste větší dobrodruh než já.Pobyt v rovníkové Africe je asi proti tomu ozdravovna.
Mějte se.
03. 08. 2007 | 21:37

Cart napsal(a):

Populační křivku? Proč na základě etnického principu? Stačí zkrouhnout dávky všem lidem bez vzdělání. Jejich potomci beztak budou ve většině případů zátěží pro společnost a musí se k tomu přistoupit tak či onak, protože v uplynulých sto letech byl vlivem zlepšení životních podmínek nastartován dysgenický trend. 80% Cikánů má maximálně základní vzdělání.
04. 08. 2007 | 00:05

stejskal napsal(a):

Dobrý den, pane Pepo Řepo,

s oběma poznámkami víceméně souhlasím.

Pokusím se je jen trochu rozvést. Změnit populační křivku je jistě třeba (fuj, to je odporný terminus). Ta část romské populace, která je nevzdělaná a podle našich kritérií zcela asociální si namnoze (ne vždy) zachovává velmi silné rodinné vazby a struktury. Asi by se mnozí zde diskutující divili, jak silný má celá řada i těch nejasociálnějších Romů vztah k rodině (ano, já vím, některé matky prodávají své nezletilé dcery pedofilům; ale to opravdu není pravidlo).

Je samozřejmě nutné nastavit dávky tak, aby z plození dětí nemohl být výnosný zdroj obživy (jsem zvědav, jak na to budou reagovat lidovci, kteří dokonce požadují, aby nezletilí příslušníci mnohačetných rodin jejich příznivců měli volební právo :-) Další problém bude s těmi, kterým vadí, že Češi de facto vymírají, neboť se rodí málo dětí, a oni mají za to, že vysokými rodičovskými příspěvky se dá tento trend efektivně obrátit).

Další věc je ale opět osvěta. Zdlouhavá, trpělivá, pravděpodobně plná omylů a chyb. Prostě je prostě nutné postupně přivést velkou část těch tzv. asociálních Romů k závěru, že je pro ně výhodnější mít děti dvě nebo tři a ne čtrnáct.

O naivitě bezpřehé neregulované imigraci z islámských zemí jsme se už, tuším, bavili. Nicméně se domnívám, že ty vcelku vysoké počty přistěhovalců, kteří již dorazili, je Evropa schopna zvládnout k oboustrannému prospěchu. Ale je to jen můj dojem (ani ne názor), nemám pro toto své tvrzení podporu žádných "tvrdých" čísel či faktů.

Co se týče IQ teorií pana Carta, myslím, že už jsem je několikrát poměrně jednodušše vyvrátil. Jeho návody, jak "eliminovat" lidi, kteří nemohou či nedokáží dosáhnout na vyšší vzdělání mi nestojí za další komentář. Už jsem se k tomuto způsobu myšlení kdesi pod blogy vyjadřoval.

Přeji hezký víkend.

Libor Stejskal
04. 08. 2007 | 01:58

Cart napsal(a):

Že byste něco vyvrátil, to si nevzpomínám. Integrace Cikánů probíhá už od 18. století s nulovým výsledkem po celé Evropě. Totéž se týká integrace černochů přivezených v uplynulých staletích do západních zemí - i jejich moderních afrických následovníků.

Vy však stále doufáte, že se nám to jednoho dne podaří. Ještě aspoň 20 let, nebo aspoň 40 let. Nebo 60 let. Nebo 100 let. Nebo 200 let? Takových 1000 let by možná mohlo stačit, ne?
04. 08. 2007 | 02:08

skeprický napsal(a):

Ohledně té tolik protěžované migrace z moslemských zemí,která má být přínosem:Kadáfí ůdajně kdysi řekl,že co meč nedobyl,dobudou dělohy našich žen.

Po staletí byl Islám metlou křesťanských zemí,ještě před pár set lety se bojovalo až u Vídně,a teď nám je sem posílají znovu.Tentokrát s kufrem místo meče.Výsledek bude stejný,je to invaze.Křesťanství je díky staletí dlouhému boji o rozmělnění na ústupu,a náboženství je stmelující síla,která dokázala pro některé národy divy.

A zase jsou tu experti a poradci ,kteří nám hlásají,jak je to pro nás dobře.Jinak,než porobením bílého obyvatelstva,nebo občanskou válkou to skončit nemůže.Dusit lidi nějakými šikovnými zákony také nelze věčně.

V Kanadě,která je nesmírně uvědomělá,co se týče menšin, dokonce uvažují o jejich samosprávě a vlastních soudech.
Za padesát let má na blízkém východě dojít voda,tak se nám to nastěhuje sem.
04. 08. 2007 | 06:06

Pepa Řepa napsal(a):

Dobrý den pane Carte
pokud myslíte to, že by měly být vázány na školní docházku, stejně jako podpora na veřejně prospěšné práce, tak to asi není úplně zavrženíhodná myšlenka.Školní docházka je ze zákona povinná, porušuju tím zákon.Kdo chce chodit za lajnu, holt nic nedostane.

Problém bych viděl někde jinde.U postižených. Každému z nás se může narodit dítě třeba s Downem. Hodíme ho ze skály?Nebude schopné dochodit normální školu. Zřídíme speciální? Aktivisté budou křičet,že je potřeba začlenění mezi normální.Kdo posoudí, zda je jedinec postižený? Lékařská komise? Pro polovinu venkova je největší pašák ten, kdo dokázal zmáknout doktora, aby mu napsal invalidku.Možná nejen venkova.
Teď si uvědomuju, že jsem neviděl Roma s Downem. Ale možná se pletu.

Pokud jde o vícečetné lidovecké rodiny, co je znám, tak se radši uskromní.Navíc je možné různě motivovat. Do čtvrtého dítěte přídavky a od pátého motivační stipendium i pro nižší stupně vzdělání.

Přečetl jsem si u konkurence články kluků z kapely gipsy.cz.Stojí za přečtení.
Připadá mi zvláštní, že na jednu stranu aktivisti volají po positivní diskriminaci a na druhou stranu vám ten Rom řekne, že si připadal jako blbeček, když si nemusel jako jediný kupovat na obchodce knihy.Ponižovalo ho to.
04. 08. 2007 | 09:01

stejskal napsal(a):

Dobré ráno, pane skeprický,

dokázal byste časově určit, do kdy zhruba bylo křesťanství metlou islámského světa (občas při tom křesťané ve svatém nadšení vyplenili při křížových výpravách i křesťanský Cařihrad) a kdy se situace obrátila?

Mohl byste mi také říci, zda marducké Turky coby hegemona v osmanské říši ztotožňujete s celým islámem a pokud ne, co v historii středověku či raného novověku způsobili Evropě například muslimové indonéští, thajští či indičtí?

Zdá se, že o historii zhusta opíráte svojí argumentaci, proto by mne velmi zajímal Váš názor.

Děkuji za odpověď a přeji hezký den.

Libor Stejskal
04. 08. 2007 | 10:24

jogín napsal(a):

Problémy se sociálními parazity jsou všude, nejen u Romů. Chyba při hledání řešení je v tom, že se nebere v úvahu vliv genetiky- a souvisí to s reklamou, kterou udělal eugenice Hitler. Když je tendence k lenosti a neodpovědnosti dědičná, má výchova mizivý efekt. U zdejších Romů se samozřejmě situace horší tím, že jsou ochuzováni ty, kteří jsou schopní se integrovat. Při citelném vlivu genetiky na chování jsou jediným řešením děti na povolení. Zvýšení životní úrovně odstranilo vliv bídy na populační růst nepřizpůsobivých a úprava demografie pomocí plynových komor taky popularitu nezískala.
04. 08. 2007 | 11:03

václav napsal(a):

Pokud nebudeme moci statisticky zjistit kolik Romů-či cikánů u nás žije,pak celá tato debata postrádá smysl,neboť řešíme něco,co neexistuje.....Jak je možné,že menšina cca 15 /?/ tisíc má tak silné zastoupení a vliv ./V úřadě vlády,TV Romea,atd. A je s ní takový problém?? Poněvadž ani v budoucnu se k romské národnosti více cikánů nepřihlásí,navrhuji cikány,či Romy naprosto ignorovat /když nemají hrdost se ke svému romství hlásit/ a psát jedině o nepřizpůsobivých.Co peněz stály různé podpůrné akce k asimilaci Romů,-kteří de fakto zde nejsou.....a když,tak v naprostu zanedbatelném počtu.Kdo je Rom? Za koho mluvíte?/Otázka pro funkcionáře/ V podstatě je to k smíchu -uměle se zde vytvořilo něco-co není.....
04. 08. 2007 | 14:20

Skeptický napsal(a):

Vážený pane Stejskale.

Nemáte to s námi lehké.Jsem poctěn,že moje výkřiky do tmy,způsobené stařeckou nespavostí vzbudily Vaši pozornost.
Nejsa historikem,moje znalosti historie jsou poněkud sporadické.Historie je také interpretována různě,podle úhlu pohledu různých lidí,a také se dost přepisovala,jak víme z historie ( té nepřepisované ).
Tuším ale,že otázka Vámi položená je ,spíše než zkouškou mých znalostí dějepisu,otázkou tzv.řečnickou,t.j.takovou,na kterou tázající zná odpověď.

Muslimské náboženství,mohamedánství či Islám se datuje od L.P.571 narozením Mohameda v dnešní Saudské Arabii,nebo Jemenu.Obyvatelstvo převážně tehdy židovské,nějací Arabové.
Matka Mohamedova,který pocházel z bojovného židovského kmene byla údajně pokřtěná židovka.
Svatá kniha,Korán,je silně poplatná Bibli a Talmudu.Všechna tři náboženství jsou si rovněž velmi podobná.Jeden Bůh,proroci Mojžíš,Ježíš,a Mohamed.Každé náboženství čeká svého spasitele,Mesiáše,který mocí danou z nebes bude s nimi králem světa.Židé na svého čekají,Ježíše neuznali,křesťané čekají Ježíše.Mohamedány Mohamed převezl,neboť prohlásil,já jsem jediný prorok,a po mně další nebude.Dále jsou si podobná myšlenkou pokoření světa pravověrnými.

Myšlenka Islamu byla obyvatelstvem zprvu přijímána kladně,jako štít proti šíření křesťanství,ale příznivci Mohamedovi přijali myšlenku šíření náboženství ohněm a mečem velmi nadšeně,a docházelo k násilné islamizaci Arabů i Židů,anebo k vyhnání ze země.Od té doby se nemají rádi.
Po smrti Mohamedově došlo k bojům o následovnictví,poté co třetí kalif(náměstek boží na zemi ) byl zavražděn,nastoupil Ali,zeť Mohamedův.Poté ,co i on byl zabit,rozšířilo se,že
coby nositel částky boží nemohl zemřít,a vrátí se.Tak vznikla šiitská odnož islamu,jakýsi protestantismus.Dnes většinou v Iránu a Iráku.

Osmanští Turci přišli na území Byzance kolem r.800,poměrně rychle přijali Islám,a dobývali území.Postavili si hlavní město kousek od Konstantinopole,a koncem 11.stol.obsadili Jeruzalém.S arabským,židovským a křesťanským obyvatelstvem zacházeli velmi nevybíravě,tudíž se byzantský vládce obrátil na papeže.
Výsledkem bylo asi sedm křižáckých výprav,taky pěkná řezničina,s křesťanskou láskou se nesrovnávající,ale muselo se rozlišovat,kdo je bližní.
Ty se vyčerpaly,od r.1300 do r.1600 turecké výboje do Evropy dobyly území větší části dnešního Řecka,Bulharska,Jugoslavie.S menšími úspěchy pak bojovali dalších dvě stě let.
Tolik odpověď kdo začal.
S orientálními muslimy nemám žádné problémy,pokud mi nečůrají do čaje,Evropa historicky asi taky ne.Ovšem o militantním pojetí náboženství
i v jejich části světa slyším dost často.Náboženství ctím všechna,protože jako morální kodex jsou užitečná.
V dnešním globalizovaném světě
myšlenka válek se střílením změnami území vyšla z módy v industrializovaných oblastech,kvůli škodám,a je nahrazena demografickým inženýrstvím.To mi vadí.Je tu v poslední době dost věcí,které jsou nám vnucovány,já bych rád věděl kdo a proč.Za nás myslí strana a vláda,to už tu bylo.

Pokud získáte dojem,že se občas opakuji,bylo mi kdysi vysvětleno,že i velké mysli se opakují,protože velkých myšlenek je málo.

S úctou,

Skeptický
04. 08. 2007 | 16:51

Ivan Hochmann napsal(a):

Vzátil jsem se po pár dnech ns tuto stránku a udělal jsem dobře.je to tady velmi zajímavé počteníčko.Pane Skeptický s úctou děkuji.Váš článek o islámu jsem zkonfiskoval-chyběli mě některé informace v něm uvedené.Pane Stejkale nepřete se s námi ,nemáte šanci.Také děkuji Norimu,Řepovi,Neovi a dalším.Tak nějak jsem si vždy představoval úroveň diskuse a tak nějak by se měla dělat novinařina.Jeden by ani neřekl,že je možné díky cikánům přijít ke vzdělání a ještě se pobavit.Ještě jednou děkuji pánové Ivan
04. 08. 2007 | 22:05

Ivan Hochmann napsal(a):

Když jsem v tom psaní přidám polénko.Měl jsem v minulosti nějaké účty s pochopením mentality lidí žijících v horách Kavkazu.Navštívil jsem také s otevřenýma očima Turecko,Řecko-ostrovy,Sýrii,Čečnu.Abych si udělal v hlavě pořádek,musel jsem se prokousat historií a proto je nyní pro mě snadnější chápat i předvídat.A že to vychází mě naplňuje spíše smutkem a skepsí.Máme lidi smůlu jdeme kam nechceme. Ivan.
04. 08. 2007 | 22:22

skeptický napsal(a):

P.S.
Osmanská dynastie přišla až později,prý kolem roku 1290,omlouvám se jemnému čtenáři.

S.
05. 08. 2007 | 00:44

stejskal napsal(a):

Dobrý den, pane Skeptický,

Váš historický exkurs je velmi fundovaný a vůbec na mne nepůsobí jako výkřiky do tmy způsobené stařeckou nespavostí. Pokud jste opravdu ve věku, který se dá nazvat stařeckým, byl bych nesmírně šťasten, aby mi to - pokud se toho dožiji - myslelo tak jasně a pronikavě jako Vám. To není ironie, myslím to naprosto vážně.

Máte samozřejmě pravdu; jednalo se o otázku řečnickou. I když z části jsem chtěl také vědět, na jaké znalostní úrovni se můžeme bavit. Nyní vím, že se budu muset hodně snažit a zároveň pracovat se zdroji, abych Vám dokázal být alespoň rovnocenným partnerem.

S prvními třemi odstavci absolutně souhlasím. Jsou přesné a pro potřeby této debaty vyčerpávající.

Od čtvrtého odstavce mám ovšem o historii v některých ohledech poněkud jiné informace.

Např. historik religionizity David Zbíral píše: "Křížové výpravy byly součástí širších ekonomických a náboženských pohybů v západní Evropě 11.-13. století. Jeruzalém hrál poměrně důležitou roli v náboženském cítění a praxi latinského křesťanstva a byl během staletí muslimské nadvlády nadále cílem křesťanských poutníků. V 11. století se poutnictví do Jeruzaléma zvýznamnilo, což bylo jednou z příčin narůstajícího počtu konfliktních situací. V roce 1077-1078 Jeruzalém dobyli Seldžučtí Turci a došlo k násilnostem proti křesťanským poutníkům. Jednak tyto násilnosti, jednak obecně změna dosavadního poměrně příznivého stavu vyvolala na Západě pobouření. Základem myšlenky křížových výprav byl právě pocit, že je třeba zajistit příslušníkům latinské církve bezpečnou a nerušenou pouť do Jeruzaléma. K této pohnutce se ovšem okamžitě připojily dvě další, které měly patrně ještě větší motivační sílu: jednak možnost získat nová území, jednak nelibost, že Jeruzalém, svaté místo Kristova utrpení, je v rukou nekřesťanů."

Není zdaleka jediný, kdo naznačuje, že na Blízkém východě islám nezačal ohrožovat křesťanství, ale naopak křesťané si dělali zálusk na do té doby muslimy ovládaná území.

A že ani seldžučtí Turci nebyli žádní barbaři dokládá dohoda Richarda Lví srdce se sultánem Saladinem, která dovolovala křesťanům návštěvu svatých míst, byť je ovládali muslimové.

Co tím chci říci: nelze podle mne tvrdit, že islám byl po staletí metlou evropských měst, aniž by se zároveň neřeklo, že křesťanství bylo v určitých obdobích metlou měst islámských.

Jediné, co jsem měl svojí předchozí replikou (řečnickou otázkou) na mysli, je právě tento závěr. Každý jiný mi přijde poněkud jednostranný a tendenční.

Důležité není až tak, kdo si na přelomu prvního a druhého milénia začal, ale zda se islámu podobně jako křesťanství teprve před pár stoletími podaří zbavit fanatických a extremistických projevů.

Civilizace, které už mají tento přerod za sebou, mu v tom snad mohou pomoci. Mohou ho ale podle mého názoru také velmi na této cestě brzdit. A domnívám se, že by to byla fatální chyba.

S pozdravem

Libor Stejskal
05. 08. 2007 | 00:48

Dezo,Rom napsal(a):

Vy,cesi mate strach z budouctnosti a proto nenavidite Romy,ze? Ty vase hodnoty jsou provas mnohem nebezpecnejsi,nez romove? Sami se zabyjite anichz to tusite,materialni hodnoty a vase kariera zabyji Mozna je to jeden z duvodu proc nenavidet Romy?
Češi žijí stále více osaměle
Počet jednočlenných domácností se za 30 let zdvojnásobil * v roce 2005 jich bylo kolem 1,3 miliónu
Stále více lidí žije v České republice osaměle. Za posledních třicet let se počet jednočlenných domácností téměř zdvojnásobil.

Jestliže v roce 1975 bylo necelých 700 000 jednočlenných domácností, v roce 2005 jich již bylo kolem 1,3 miliónu. Na celkovém počtu čtyř miliónů domácností se tak jednočlenné domácnosti podílejí v Česku téměř 30 procenty.

Podle odhadu Českého statistického úřadu bude podíl jednočlenných domácností dál růst až ke hranici 35 procent. Většinu jednočlenných domácností navíc tvoří v Česku ženy (57 procent). Tento trend, pokud na něj společnost včas nezareaguje, má velmi vážné dopady do ekonomiky, zdravotnictví a sociálního systému, varují experti.
05. 08. 2007 | 03:21

Hurá napsal(a):

Pro pana Stejskala, ale i pro jiné.
Pokračování o IQ.
IQ černých dětí ve věku 7 let v adoptivních bílých rodinách střední třídy bylo srovnatelné s IQ jejich bílých sourozenců. Během dalších 10 let však kleslo k jejich populačnímu průměru. Prostředí může ovlivnit vývoj adoptovaného dítěte do puberty, dále již ne a dochází k regresi. Rozdílnost prostředí není příčinou rozdílnosti v IQ.Platí, že lidé si utvářejí prostředí max. kompatibilní s jejich genotypem. Ne naopak !(Jensen) Rozdíly mezi ras. skupinami jsou největší v těch charakteristikách, které jsou nejvíce dědičné.(Wechsler) Eskymáci žijící ve svém prostředí dosahují stejných hodnot jako běloši. Motivace nemá žádný efekt na výkonost v testech IQ.(Eysenck)Černé děti školního věku jsou v mentálním vývoji o dva roky pozadu za bílými a o tři za asiatskými.U negroidů je kratší doba těhotenství a přesto jsou černé děti po narození fyzicky vyspělejší než bílé. Tento náskok v motorice trvá asi 3 roky, pak je bílé děti předhoní.Rychlost tělesného vývoje negativně koreluje s inteligencí. Černí, kteří chodili do integrovaných škol, mají deviantnější skore než černí, kteří chodili do segregovaných škol. Environmentalistická metoda však očekávala pravý opak ! Nestalo se.(Dahlstrom,Lachar)Černí mají větší tendenci než bílí zařazovat se mezi nejchytřejší i když dosahují horších výsledků než bílí.(Nyborg) Černí mají větší úmrtnost ve všech věkových i profesních skupinách.Důvod je biologický.(Maclean)V roce 1985 připadlo v USA na černochy 50% všech vražd a 66% loupeží, přestože tvořili 12% populace.(Wilson, Herrnstein)V USA jsou 3% kriminality bílých smeřováno proti černým a 67% kriminality černých proti bílým.(Levin) Průměrný rozdíl mezi bílými a černými Američany je 15 bodů. Tento rozdíl se za posledních 80 let nezměnil. ATD, ATD, ATD.
05. 08. 2007 | 03:58

jirka napsal(a):

A rozdílný vývoj IQ u dětí v rozdílných rodinách je dán tím, že myslím do 15 let věku se IQ počítá jinak: 100*mentální věk/skutečný věk. Děti v dobrých rodinách jsou pochopitelně mentálně vpředu.
05. 08. 2007 | 10:57

Pepa Řepa napsal(a):

Dobrý den
faktické poznámky k debatě Skeptický-Stejskal:

1.Tvrzení, že matka Muhammedova byla pokřtěná židovka, se mi zdá být příliš odvážné.
Pokud vím, pocházel z druhého nejmocnějšího klanu v Hadžízu, Kurajšovců a to z kmene Banú Hášim.Nejvlivnějším klanem byl tehdy Banú Umájja, z tohoto klanu pocházela dynastie Umájjovců, vládnoucí z Damašku v prvních sto třiceti letech islámu.Od kmene Banú Hášim odvozuje svůj přímý původ Hášimovská dynastie v Jordánsku.Oponenti se tomuto nároku vysmívají.

2.Je pravdou, že indonéští nebo indičtí muslimové nezpůsobili Evropě v novověku újmu.Pokud ovšem nepočítáme atentátníka z Gasgow, muslima indického původu.nejbližší sousedé, tedy obyvatelé východního Timoru nebo Kašmíru,by asi vyprávěli jiný příběh.

3.Pokud jde o Osmanskou říši, tak si dovoluji připomenout, že genocida 1,8 až 3 milionů Arménu /odhady se liší/ byla z větší části provedena za osvícených kemalistů, tedy po konci vlády marduckých Turků.

4.Pohledy na to, kdo začal násilí v Palestině jsou různé a vydaly by na knihu.Asi bychom se museli vrátit k tomu, proč si na Jeruzalém dělají muslimové nárok, jako na třetí nejsvětější město. Vychází z toho, že se z tohoto místa Muhammad vznesl na své klisně do nebe.Jednalo se zřejmě o jakýsi sen, Muhammad prokazatelně nikdy v Jeruzalémě nebyl.Možná bychom museli až k Abrahámovi.

5,Předpoklad, že islám projde za čtyři století stejným vývojem, jako křesťanství je ryze spekulativní.Vychází z evropského pohledu a nebere v úvahu odlišnosti obou monoteistických náboženství, zvláště nemožnost zkoumat kriticky Qurán.Paralela s protestanstvím není možná.
Vzestup a rozkvět islámu šel ruku v ruce s násilnými výboji a obsazování nových území.Stagnace nastala až po skončení geografického dobývání území jiných kultur.
To lze fakticky doložit údaji o islámu mezi sedmým a šestnáctým, možná sedmnáctým stoletím.
05. 08. 2007 | 14:26

stejskal napsal(a):

Dobrý den, pane Hurá,

neopověděl jste mi na otázku. Víte, co to znamená Flynnův efekt?

Libor Stejskal
05. 08. 2007 | 15:14

Čochtan napsal(a):

Myslím, že by bylo rozumné podmínit rozmnožovací právo přinejmenším průměrným IQ a schopností potomky uživit vlastní prací a ne kriminalitou.
Podle hesla: "Nejdřív povinnosti, pak práva". Nevím zda by to vyřešilo náš problém, ale alespoň by to změnilo explodující problém na "nerostoucí".
05. 08. 2007 | 16:30

Čochtan napsal(a):

Pane Stejskale,
Není pravda jak píšete že "na Blízkém východě islám nezačal ohrožovat křesťanství, ale naopak křesťané si dělali zálusk na do té doby muslimy ovládaná území."
Opak je pravdou.

První "křižácké" tažení bylo když lupič Mohamed začal ve jménu své právě vymyšlené víry dobývat okolní území. Převážně křesťanskou a židovskou Palestinu, Jerusalem,..a tak dál až k vylodění ve Španělsku. Takže první "křižáci" byli vlastně "půlměsíčáci" ..

Dlouhá staletí to tak bylo, než jim začali naši křižáci odplácet.

Víte jak dopadla řecká a křesťanská knihovna v Alexandrii ? V roce 642 ji arabové spálili.
05. 08. 2007 | 16:43

jirka napsal(a):

Pokud vím, Flynnův efekt je neprokázané zbožné přání - jak to říci "antirasistů"? IQ je schopnost kombinovat a přizpůsobovat se a u dospělých jedinců se s tím nedá v podstatě hnout (bacha - používá-li se korektních testů, např. Raven. Používá-li se testů, v nichž jsou zahrnuty znalosti -třeba matematiky, tam se to ovlivnit dá). Osobně nemám k dispozici dostatek věrohodných důkazů o rozdílnosti IQ etnik a ras. U dětí je to něco jiného, protože v lepší rodině se děti rychleji vyvíjejí, výpočet viz uvedený vzoreček. V 15 se ovšem přejde ne standardní testování a je po parádě. Genetickou výbavu lze ovlivnit "eugenicky", obstaráním nových genů do populace.
05. 08. 2007 | 17:22

Pepa Řepa napsal(a):

Dobrý den pane Čochtane
je pravdou, že dobytí Jeruzalema Araby v r.640 nebylo zdaleka tak brutální jako první křížová výprava.
Tím mám na mysli represe proti místnímu obyvatelstvu.
První arabští dobyvatelé, byli v podstatě válečníci, bez vlastní kultury a snažili se přijímat poznatky mnohem vyvinutějších civilizací a tak původní obyvatelstvo dusili jen daněmi dhímmí, t.j. daněmi z hlavy pro nevěřící.
Co bylo později, je už jiná věc.Faktem je, že v bojích již tehdy používali sebevražedné útoky, čímž děsili obránce.
05. 08. 2007 | 19:17

Čochtan napsal(a):

Pane Stejskal, ohledně toho smazaného vtipu, jedna moje známá, která pracovala jako sociální úřednice, o podobném chování cikánského etnika a jeho důsledních vyprávěla.
Ani ne tak kopulace matka-syn, ale bratr-sestra, strýc-neteř, a děda-vnučka, jsou prý dost časté. Samozřejmě přesná čísla neexistují.
05. 08. 2007 | 20:24

jirka napsal(a):

Kluci, dejte pokoj s Araby! Dnes je 21.7.1428
05. 08. 2007 | 21:26

jirka napsal(a):

kupodivu, incest matka-syn se prý rozmáhá v Japonsku, otcové nemají na šoustání čas...
06. 08. 2007 | 00:17

MeGab napsal(a):

Měl bych jen jednu poznámku... Občas slyším, že je třeba podporovat cikánskou inteligenci, aby měli Cikáni vzory, že i oni mohou něčeho dosáhnout. Kdyby ale nebyli Cikáni sami rasisty, mají své vzory třeba v nás všech, co tu diskutujeme, jedno, zda se jedná o rasistu, "rasistu" nebo profesionálního Cikána.
06. 08. 2007 | 07:11

jirka napsal(a):

Jenže oni rasisti jsou... na rozdíl od nás.. a potřebovali by asi vidět vzory jejich našinců...
06. 08. 2007 | 10:06

MeGab napsal(a):

Hmm, ale to nám nepřísluší řešit, to si musí vyřešit oni sami ve svých mozcích.
06. 08. 2007 | 10:45

jirka napsal(a):

MeGu, nejsme z toho tak úplně venku, protože je tu máme. Asi by se dal najít nějaký optimální stupeň angažmá. Současné plošné rozdávání je nanic, 0 by asi pro nás nepřinesla zlepšení. Bohužel se nás ten problém týká :-(
06. 08. 2007 | 11:33

MeGab napsal(a):

Já bych jim taky nic nedával. Kdo nepracuje nebo se alespoň evidentně nesnaží najít si prací, ať nejí. Jedno, zda Čech nebo Cikán. Nevím, proč bychom se my lidé měli chovat líp nebo hůř než zvířata. Zákony přírody by měly platit pro pro všechno živé stejně.
07. 08. 2007 | 07:04

jirka napsal(a):

Já bych to přece jen vylepšil pomocí těm, kteří se budou snažit o změnu.
07. 08. 2007 | 08:31

MeGab napsal(a):

Prosím, ale to už tu je - sociální dávky, přídavky na děti, pastelkovné, porodné... Ale mělo by to být je pro ty, kteří chtějí dát této společnosti protihodnotu. Zadarmo ani kuře nehrabe, proč by měl stát?
07. 08. 2007 | 12:52

FERO napsal(a):

A toš prečo mam robit! Sam starú mamu živit?
07. 08. 2007 | 14:41

jirka napsal(a):

MeGu, to právě mám na mysli. Na jedné straně "podusit" nemakačenky a na druhé straně podpořit, i výrazně, ale jen ty, kteří se prokazatelně již vydali na cestu změny. V současné době je tady nemotivující plošné rozhazování.
07. 08. 2007 | 16:57

MeGab napsal(a):

Žádná výrazná podpora. To by jim potom stačilo voblbnout státní úředníky (to není žádný problém, ti přece nerozdávají ze svého), že se snaží najít práci a byli bychom za chvíli tam, kde jsme teď.
08. 08. 2007 | 07:25

MeGab napsal(a):

Těm, co nemakaj, bych dal jídlo (naturálně) + ošatné + něco navíc (+ nájem, pokud ho platí). Takže cash by takoví nemakačenkové dostávali třeba jen 1000 Kč/osoba/měsíc. A za ty peníze, které by se tak ušetřily, bych posílil Policii a dal vystavět vězení poblíž lomů. Jednak máme vězení už dnes přeplněná, jednak by vězni získali při lámání kamene alespoň základní pracovní návyky a taky by si svůj pobyt v base takto zaplatili.
08. 08. 2007 | 07:35

Hurá napsal(a):

Pro pana Stejskala.
Zřejmě Flynnův efekt konvenuje s Vaším přesvědčením, ale věřte, vůbec nestojí za to, aby byl vyčleněn jako dogma. Já uvádím pouze průměrné výsledky z průniků všech systémů zjišťování IQ. (Nelze postupovat jinak pokud nechceme, aby se o problému jenom "kecalo" bez smysluplného výstupu. A to se právě děje a proto nejsme schopni problém vyřešit. I v tzv. západních státech). Ano, negroidní rasu lze postupně měnit, ale pouze se zvyšováním % bílých genů. Američní černoši, podle vědeckého výzkumu, mají většinou těchto "bílých" genů již ca 25%. A je to stále málo. Obecně jeden příklad, který nelze zpochybnit; Mezi všemi uznávanými veličinami světa v celé jeho historii nenajdete černocha. (Možná existují výjimky, já je neznám). Hlavně mi neříkejte, že nemají (neměli) možnost.
Do "veličin" světa se ovšem nepočítají bojovníci za lidská práva, v tom jsou výborní, ani sportovci. To jistě chápete. V jižních městech Španělska stavějí na svých periferiích vysoké zdi. Nejsou schopni již jinak čelit nájezdům cikánů. A za těmi zdmi, věřte, to je doba kamenná. To je jejich skutečný svobodný způsob života. Byl jsem se tam podívat, neboť jsem také nevěřil. Ale zde nejde o víru, ale o tvrdá fakta.
09. 08. 2007 | 00:44

MeGab napsal(a):

Hurá: relativně slušnou šanci stát se veličinou má kandidát na prezidentské křeslo v USA Barack Obama. O nikom jiném nevím ani já.
Je fakt, že kdyby se v Africe furt nemydlili a z různých tupých důvodů nevyhnali Evropany, je na tom dnes Afrika mnohem líp než dnes. To je vidět na příkladu JAR, Botswany nebo Namíbie.
Paradoxem je, že celosvětové hnutí za sebeurčení národů podporovaly Spojené státy. Bez toho by ale nebylo ani Československo. Američani udělali botu, když vložili do rukou Afričanů vládu nad sebe samými v domnění, že sami si budou vládnout líp, stejně jako my ve střední Evropě.
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Nezazněla tu jedna otázka, a to je jakou měrou stoupá nárůst populace minoritní a jakou měrou klesá nárůst populace majoritní.

To to je totiž základním předpokladem toho aby byla zajištěna ekonomická dostačnost zajištění výchovných a integračních vládních aktivit včetně zajištění sociálních dávek. Je zcela jasné, že naše státní ekonomika není vyrovnaná, natožpak vzrůstající.

Z toho se odvíjí reálná výše zaměstnanosti a tím i reálná výše příjmů obyvatelstva, kdy se zvyšuje počet sociálně závislých osob na úkor pracujících a výdělečně činných. A na tomto poměru se největší měrou podílí právě ona minoritní populace.

V nejbližších letech se nechá očekávat další zhoršení tohoto poměru, neboť dospívá tak zvaná porevoluční generace, která vznikla již v době státního sociálního zajištění bez nutnosti pracovat, což souvisí s potřebou vzdělání. Tedy nás očekává další posun ke zvyšování nákladů a to nijak neovlivní porovnávání výše sociálních dávek s okolními státy, protože toto porovnání je relevantní teprve až se současným porovnáním reálných příjmů a vyrovnaností státních rozpočtů těchto států.
23. 08. 2007 | 09:14

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Ve svem textu ma pan Havel mlcky predpoklada ze my, Cesi, musime furt Cikanum pomahat a snazit se je predelavat. Proc? Co je nam do nich? Jsme snad spasitele sveta, trpime mesiaskym syndromem?

Vytvorme jim jejich vlasni stat a nebo stedre zasponzorujme jejich trvale presidleni do Indie. Tam at si vytvori svoji vlastni spolecnost, tak jak to bude vyhovovat jim a ne nejakym blaznivym gadzum.

Neexistuje zadny duvod proc bychom mame podporovat socialni parazitismus zcela ciziho etnika po cele generace, bez realne nadeje na zmenu k lepsimu. Jedine co tim muzeme dosahnout je likvidace vlasni spolecnosti.
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Úkolem státu je jej a jeho potomky zařadit do pracovního procesu, přičemž stát disponuje armádou svých zaměstnanců. Stát selhal v tvorbě a vymáhání zákona a nese za to odpovědnost.
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Samozřejmě vymáhání tohoto zákona, alespoň zezačátku, bude obtížné, vyžádá si součinnost zaměstnanců škol, sociálky a policie tak, aby neutrpěla bezpečnost učitelek, sociálních pracovnic a jejich rodin.
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25. 08. 2007 | 01:07

Láďa napsal(a):

tana pise "Českém Krumlově žádný problém s cikány není". Tamni situace je nasledujici: v ČK jsou problemy relativne mensi protoze tamni cikanske komunite vladne pevnou rukou cikansky baron a ten nedovoluje prichod dalsich. Tudiz ve meste ziji "starousedlici" kteri se jakz takz adaptovali. Mesto za oplatku prenechalo firme pana barona sluzby cisteni mesta.
25. 08. 2007 | 02:02

Práva a povinnosti pro všechny napsal(a):

Dobrý den pane docente,
proč nemáme ochránce povinností? Kdejaký (hledám slušný výraz) ...., má v této republice víc práv než povinností? Proč nejsou agentury, které by Cikánům taky určovaly povinnosti, a ne jenom za naše peníze, jim radili jak jich dostat ještě víc!!!!!!!!!!! Tohle je možné jenom v naší republice.
Vím, že jste si mě teď zařadil mezi nevzdělance a rasisty. Spadl jsem Vám do nepohodlné škatulky - typicky český názor. Ale víte občané (nemyslím vyloženě nějaké slabé osobnosti vyznávající zločinné ideologie), ale běžní občané opravdu vnímají zenužívání (to zdůrazňuji) jako nespravedlnost. Zkuste žít v obyčejném prostředí činžáků, jezdit MHD v nočních hodinách v inkriminovaných lokalitách, bavit se s obyčejnými lidmi, kteří byli okradeni.
Dle statistik Městké policie v Brně, kapesní krádeže tvoří z 95% Cikáni (prosím jsou to statistiky - rasista nejsem!!), jenom poukazuji na trable denního života. ¨
Každého takového zastánce bych posadil na pobočku České pošty, aby viděl kolik pobírají, myslíte si, že 8 - 10 tisíc? Omyl sumy jdou hodně přes dvacet tisíc, a to se lidem pracujícím ve státní správě může jenom zdát. ANO taková je každodenní realita, a vy se nedivte jak jeden hlas pro Romy likviduje společnost. Ne politici, ale Cikáni nás musí přesvědčit, pak to půjde. Proč není dle Vás taková "nenávist" vůči Maďarům, Slovákům, Asiatům, Afričanům (kromě pár blbečků, kteří hledají sami sebe)????
Na druhou stranu proč myslíte, že zvítězil Vlastík Horváth jako SuperStar, Balogová druhá (jsme skutečně takoví rasisti, dle vaši pseudotezí?) Já odpovídám NE!
Lidé pouze rozližují, kdo má snahu a kdo ne a dokud to tak bude, tak bude víc Čunků (který je chudák označován, některými pseudomédii za rasistu) tak bude víc Čunků, protože lidi to chtějí řešit rozumně.
Prostě člověk chce pro Cikány veškeré práva co mají ostatní lidé!!!!!!!!!! Úplně stejné práva, ale prosím taky povinnosti!!!!!!!! Jako mají ostatní, a pokud tohle nebude, tak tady ty pseudodiskuse tady budou.
Jak nedávno psal houslista z cikánské kapely Gipsy.cz - Cikáni musí sami chtít!!!!! to je taky rasismus, a nebo když tohle v podstatě říká Vlastík Horváth (superstar)? Tady nelze použít Vaši argumentační teorii o předsudcích majority. Prostě říkají to sami a to je dobře.
P.S. Při vší úctě ke všem lidem téhle planetě, nechci aby jste bral vyjádření Cikán jako hanlivé, ale zajímající se o cikánskou problematiku víte, že v Evropě jsou Cikáni hrdi a rádi za tento název.
P.P.S. Mimochodem taky jsme nazýváni Gadžové, a já nejsem žádný Gadžo!!!!
Ale tady v té republice platí v tomto směru jenom A a neříká se B!!!!!!!
S pozdravem
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avaptaxia napsal(a):

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Occumbboola napsal(a):

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Neawsradway napsal(a):

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Occumbboola napsal(a):

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Overmestepe napsal(a):

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fubanilia napsal(a):

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infuffpaype napsal(a):

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12. 05. 2013 | 23:32

Vefreryiquige napsal(a):

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Onenceeluth napsal(a):

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fubanilia napsal(a):

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curpippergize napsal(a):

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Daydaythync napsal(a):

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CiffhicePhism napsal(a):

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